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Steve S.

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133DB9AB-485A-41D3-A6B4-F48DA5A2D947.jpeg This 10 round target was shot yesterday at my local gun club from a concrete bench, front/rear bags at 200 yards with zero wind and modest heat mirage - the orange center is 3” in diameter. The rifle is a bone stock Model 70 EW in .308 (down to the factory trigger setting); 3.5 - 10 x 40 Leupold 3i with std med rings and base. I am 64 years old with all of the age things that go with those years including cataracts in both eyes.
The 10 rounds were reloads discovered with some experimentation - it seems that the rifle likes this recipe. Question: given this target, the equipment and the shooter as a constant, is there a reload recipe that will add significant group size reduction or is this where I should stop - is this about as good as it gets? If there is room for meaningful reloading improvement, would you concentrate on bullet seating depth?, powder change or charge?, trim length?, etc.
As far as use, shrinking groups is just a hobby - the rifle will be used for deer however, I am aware that the present performance is already very substantial for that hunting purpose. Thank you for your insight.
 
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That's a really great looking group. I use that same charge and propellent with a 165gr Sierra GameKing and get consistent sub MOA results. A heavier bullet might "fix" this will no other changes.

.40
 
. A heavier bullet might "fix" this

I have a savage 10 with a 1/10 twist barrel and it does shoot the 168gr better then the 150gr it may be worth a try you could always buy a box of premium factory 168 gr
just to try ?
but really that group is not bad at all and way better than most shooters I see at the range
 
All things considered, thats a good group. I would try a box of this, to compare https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953358610

The American Rifleman Magazine tests many factory rifles. Most do not group under 1" @ 100 yards with factory ammo. https://www.americanrifleman.org/rifles/

Groups on the internet are always smaller in real life, because we keep/remember the best ones and forget the bad. At least i do.

10 shot groups are almost always larger then 5 shot groups.
 
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If you don't already I'd try boat tail.

While boat-tailed bullets are great for long range, because of their increased ballistic coefficients, they are slightly less accurate at shorter ranges than a flat based bullet.

The muzzle blast acts upon the base of the bullet as it is leaving the barrel.

A boat tailed bullet takes longer through the transition of leaving the muzzle, and has the gases pushing on the angle of the base as well as the flat.
This may cause some irregularities.

These irregularities are lost in the noise of wind reading at longer ranges.



How far from the lands are you loading?
Do you use an expander button or a separate expanding die?
How exact are you measuring the powder charge?
Do you crimp these rounds?

How is your trigger?

Just like human taste, a universal recipe for Rogan Joshe, there is not.

Some may work well in a lot of rifles, but to come down to it, your recipe will only taste good in your rifle.

Still a dead deer...
 
Like you, I like 150 grain bullets in the .308 and .30-06.

I use W-W 760 and it groups very well in my rifles.

However, I replaced the wood stock with synthetic and that helped quite a bit.
 
You're good to go where you are, but trying some Sierra 150 grain GameKings and Federal or CCI Match primers couldn't hurt...
 
43.5 gr is BELOW the recommended minimum for that powder and bullet weight according to my manuals. For 10 shots you're not likely to do significantly better, but you're leaving a lot of performance on the table. I load those bullets right up to the max (47 gr) and get the accuracy I want. I don't shoot 10 shot groups, but will consistently shoot 1 MOA for 5 shots.
 
That's almost the charge weight I used with 178gr bullets in my last .308... I'd up it a bit and see if accuracy gets better, also Sierra Gamekings might be worth a try as they are usually a slam dunk accuracy wise.

That said, none of my 3 M70 EWs were fantastic shooters. They all shot ok, but 1.5" was about the best you could hope for regularly. It depends on what's good enough for you, you might can find a better load, and you certainly can find a faster load. If ~2,650 fps with 150gr @ 1.5 - 2 moa is all you're looking for, you realistically shouldn't have any problems killing deer within 200 yds.
 
The 10 rounds were reloads

I postulate, with the way it doubles holes, that your load practice is fairly consistent. And that you are fairly consistent with your hold. Or lucky.

I speculate that, based upon several mentions of using a slightly increased charge of the same powder or a heavier bullet, that you are perhaps very near an accuracy node but have missed it short somehow. Was there a reason you stopped or chose the charge you did?

I wildly conjecture that this is the extent of the precision of this rig.

The rifle is a bone stock Model 70 EW in .308 (down to the factory trigger setting)

it seems that the rifle likes this recipe.

I am guessing that perhaps you feel otherwise...
I might change powder or bullet. A wise man said to do that first. And that seating depth and things are a finer adjustment.
I think that load needs more than fine adjustment. However.

What is your seating depth? Do you have more room in the magazine to seat longer? Would this let you put more powder in the case?


3.5 - 10 x 40 Leupold 3i with std med rings and base. I am 64 years old with all of the age things that go with those years including cataracts in both eyes.

You can not hit what you can not see. :(
Higher power scopes are for good groups.
 
I agree with demi-human; seating the same bullet out a bit longer, if possible, should reduce the group size. Still, quite impressive!
 
You could try some different brands or designs of bullet to see if the barrel likes one better than all the others as well as varying the propellant and insertion depth of the bullet as mentioned. There are as many tricks as loads that might improve your group size. But there comes a point of diminishing returns and only you can call it a day when you reach that spot. BTW that's a good target.:thumbup:
 
I’m 66 with Time and patience to keep tuning and learning.
The 308 hunting rifle should shoot better than 1.5 Moa
Recommend that you keep testing , I’ll attach a couple of loads that I had and passed up for another load that shot smaller.
Don’t settle
 

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For the sole purpose of shrinking groups there are a couple of things you can try. I would try, in this order...incremental increase of your charge weight approaching max, slightly lengthen your COL within parameters your barrel and magazine will allow while following load work up best practices, Hornady 150SP, Speer 150SP, IMR4064.
 
Just for your information, my wife's. 308 Savage M11 accutrigger grouped around 1.5 MOA stock with the best loads I could find. A glass bedded custom fit walnut stock shrunk this to 1 MOA or better, but never tested over 10 rounds. Your group is really quite good for a bone stock rifle, and you may be approaching the limits of precision. Interested to see if you're able to squeeze it down a fuzz.
 
I was very interested for input from this forum; lots of knowledge and experience. After my readings here and my own thoughts, I look at this shooting as about as good as it gets (all things equal) and it seems that chasing a smaller group for what is essentially a common production deer rig has steep “diminishing returns”.
This group looks to me like it is behaving very well with the exception of the spread size. My gut tells me to let things be and if I want this rig to shrink group size, probably the smartest endeavor is better glass - 10X for me at 200 yards just doesn’t cut it (Scotty, I need more power). Thanks to all for the guidance.
 
Jim, my challenge is that regardless of focus setting, my sight picture is blurry; at 10X for 200 yards, the crosshairs intersect almost completely blocks out the 3” orange circle and then I have the blur on top of that. I am told that when time for the eye surgery, 10X should be plenty for fresh eyeballs. That is why it makes sense for me to leave the rig/ reloads as is - it is too much me and not so much the equipment. It looks to me that the load (as is) has much more potential. Thanks for the input.
 
Steve,
I totally understand every word and wish you a successful surgery.
I took a 15x to the range yesterday after shooting my 32x it a HUGE difference.
I suppose it was a while back when the old ten power was in action and rightfully so.
Now I’m in the market for a new scope for my old eyes , looking at a Sightron 10-50 also a Vortex 15-60 both have very good Glass and a bit spendy
 
I like my Golden Eagle. But the HD six something Leupold is just that much better.
I could not afford "just that much" more...:D
If you shoot for the Moon, you'll see the impact with the Vortex!

When you do get fresh eyes, Steve, I hope for you a quick and glorious recovery!:thumbup:
 
Damn fine shooting sir! Now for my .02:

There are better targets for dialing in a scope and if you don’t have a reference point easily aimed at, you’ll never isolate aiming error from rifle/shooter. I would suggest Thompson targets for a start or any target giving both horizontal and vertical cues identifiable at your shooting distance. Maximum magnification won’t always work best for this, so keep that in mind when acquiring the target.

Second, make up a few boxes of that load and mark them for hunting, they’ll be fine for that purpose and I’m assuming your dues are set at this point. If you’d like to tune another load for accuracy with a different bullet, a second set of dies is what I recommend, with a label for each set denoting recipe once finished. If that isn’t on the table, load as many hunting rounds as you’ll need for several seasons to come before adjusting dies.

I always seat a bit on the conservative side for hunting to preserve function above absolute accuracy in importance; chasing 1/10ths isn’t relative to hunting deer inside 200 yards.

Finally, unless the chase drive you bonkers, there’s no harm in pursuing better accuracy. The rifle may be at its limit or you may be at yours, but there’s fun to be had in finding out.


Various Thompson targets
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89E2CB42-93F7-44E2-9AEC-B2B3356A8A67.jpeg


4E9334EF-E00E-4FAE-9713-E4B36F334C14.jpeg
 
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