Colt 1911 “lunch box” gun

If it has no S/N you may want to get rid of it.
My guess is that every 1911 that Colt ever built should have been serialized thereby making the one you have illegal. If it truely is a lunchbox gun it was stolen even if it was piece by piece. If not then someone scrubbed the S/N and now it's contraband. Either way keeping it puts you on the wrong side of the law.

That would be cool if it was..

You have to find out if in fact the gun was made without a serial number.. One would need to measure the frame of the pistol where the serial number was and to see if the frame is the thickness of a proper Colt 1911 frame.

If the frame has been shaved then the gun has been altered and the frame would need to be destroyed...

If the frame is the correct thickness then it may be a lunch box gun..

If I take a solid block of steel and use a mill in my basement to create a (one)1911, there's nothing illegal about that. There's nothing illegal about the weapon created, there's nothing illegal about my ownership of it.

I am sure there are better Rule thumpers then I to explain the mess of laws that are out there, but My basic understanding is if a gun was made with a serial number and the serial number was removed it is contraband.. If it was made without a serial number then it is ok..

Based on what i can see, the thumb safety, hammer - sear - mainspring housing pins, mag catch, and slide stop pin look to be at their normal level and not excessively proud of the right side of the frame. That tells me the frame was likely not altered to remove a serial number that in reality was never on the frame to begin with.

This isn't the first thread about a pistol like this.

IIRC, the consensus opinion was that if it was built without a serial number, it's fine.

Spats McGee said:

That is (legally) an entirely different situation from possession of a firearm from which the serial number has been removed.

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I agree.

I was objecting to the statements "if it has no serial number you may want to get rid of it." and "Either way keeping it puts you on the wrong side of the law."

As you point out, no serial number is not a problem, the issue is how it came to be that way. Assuming the original poster is an honest person and came by this weapon by a truly legal method, the mere absence of a serial number does not, by itself, put him on the wrong side of the law.

It could be stolen. It could have had the serial number removed. Or it could be a completely legal weapon in all respects, as my block-of-steel-in-my-basement example demonstrates, and buying it / inheriting it / owning it / possessing it could be completely free of legal risks.

I don't see enough evidence anywhere in this thread to say, definitively, which is the case. There isn't enough information here for me to be able to tell.

P.S. I'm not sure I'd be willing to own a weapon without a serial number. Like open carry, it just seems like it's screaming for attention, the kind of attention an adult shouldn't really want.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

P.P.S. Makes me wonder what Mas Ayoob would say about lighting someone up in self defense some dark night with a weapon with no serial number loaded with reloads.

Its got the WB (Waldemar Broberg) Army inspector's mark on the LH side of the frame, and the P for proof testing. There is NO WAY it would have made it through final inspection and proofing without a serial number. Therefore, the serial number was almost certainly removed and the shiny plating applied to help conceal the buffing of the frame.

IMO, you should destroy that frame, save the rest of the parts and put them on a legal frame.

Fusion Arms makes very nice, inexpensive, stainless frames here in the US-
https://www.fusionfirearms.com/fusion-firearms-1911-frame-c-class

The gun is a heavily modified former Army gun. There are numerous thread out there were people discuss the removal of the serial number and US property markings. It’s even possible to weld up new metal in the areas that were ground down and get a flat surface where the markings used to be.

Do with it as you please, but that’s not a “lunchbox” gun. If I had purchased the gun I’d contact the seller and be looking to get a refund assuming the price was anywhere over $100.

There is a process where the BATF can issue a new serial number and a licensed gunsmith can stamp the frame, making it legal.

As said above, if it has inspection stamps there's no way it didn't have a serial number when it left the factory.
Inspection stamps were applied AFTER the serial number.
Don't think that serial numbers and US property stamps can't be removed without leaving signs of removal.

Right now you're holding a Felony conviction in your hand. A state or Federal prosecutor would love to get a slam-dunk conviction with this.
Either get rid of it or get a BATF serial number applied.

dfariswheel said:

There is a process where the BATF can issue a new serial number and a licensed gunsmith can stamp the frame, making it legal.

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What they have to say about it (ATF)

If the serial number is, in fact, unrecognizable then an ATF serial number may be issued only if the serial number was made unrecognizable by other than a willful violation of law. This would involve having an ATF agent physically inspect the firearm to make that determination.

*The only gun I know of that had a serial number purposely removed and ATF granted a new one was for Bonnie Parkers Revolver. The gun had providence since it was taken off her body + historical piece of Americana.

Ole "Billy Bob" with gramps stolen 1911 likely isn't going to have the same luck.

That is a WW1 Colt 1911

I know before 1968 guns were not required to have a serial number. I have had several Mossberg shotguns without them. I don’t know why this one would have to have one since it is so old.

JONWILL said:

That is a WW1 Colt 1911

I know before 1968 guns were not required to have a serial number. I have had several Mossberg shotguns without them. I don’t know why this one would have to have one since it is so old.

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Because, JONWILL, it bears the stamp of a military inspector, and as has been mentioned, that was applied after the serial number was applied. It was a Government issued weapon, and thus even well before 1968 had a serial number. The frame is contraband, and should be (sadly) destroyed ASAP.

All M1911 and M1911A1 pistols issued to the US military branches were serial numbered, including the M1911 that was in my Arms Room which had a correct inspector's cartouche for 1917, when it was issued. The cartouche was GHS, for Major Gilbert H. Stewart.

BTW, it is a WWII era 1911A1. Waldemar Broberg was a cadet at West Point until 1919.

JONWILL said:

That is a WW1 Colt 1911

I know before 1968 guns were not required to have a serial number. I have had several Mossberg shotguns without them. I don’t know why this one would have to have one since it is so old.

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Only rimfire and smoothbores were exempt prior to 1968, Jon. All Colt 1911s had serial numbers applied at the factory since the very beginning of production.

Also, although the slide may date to WW1 (1918), the frame, which is the legal firearm, is an A1 which dates it later than 1924. Indeed, as Col.Broberg was the Army inspector from 1941 to 1942, the frame can be reliably dated as such and most likely had a serial number between 750,000 and 861,000.

Since 68 keeps being brought up. That little law passed in 1934 commonly known as the NFA is what made defacing serial numbers a crime.

It's not worth 10 years in prison.

JONWILL said:

That is a WW1 Colt 1911

I know before 1968 guns were not required to have a serial number. I have had several Mossberg shotguns without them. I don’t know why this one would have to have one since it is so old.

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Actually, the mainspring housing and the trigger relief say that it's an A1, and was manufactured between the wars at the earliest.

The mainspring housing was replaced. (It's gold plated.) But the trigger relief is part of the frame.

Carry on.

I agree that this is not a "lunchbox gun." From the pictures, it looks to me that the serial number and "U.S. Property" marking were ground off before the chrome / gold plating was done. That, and the plating itself, make this look like a typical "gangster gun." Bad juju. It was probably used in crimes, and even murders. I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole.

Possession of this would be a felony, just because of the defaced serial number alone. Not to mention that it was probably stolen.

If this was my great grandfather's gun I would delete the original post and keep the gun. I would use the old Colt's parts and assemble them on another frame.

Then I would make more post on THR about other things.

Cocked & Locked said:

If this was my great grandfather's gun I would delete the original post and keep the gun. I would use the old Colt's parts and assemble them on another frame.

Then I would make more post on THR about other things.

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Another way to go would be to document the destruction of the old frame here, for BATF's benefit. Then do a photo essay of your new (first?) 1911 build!