GBExpat
Member
Perhaps he is simply Trolling for a Sucker who has more dollars than sense.
Demolished Marlin
- Thread starter Jim Watson
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Charlie98
Member
I have a question about the auction... he stated that since it's blown up, it is no longer a 'rifle' and can be shipped with no FFL. I say a SN'ed receiver is a SN'ed receiver... and is still a firearm, but I'm curious if there is some sort of technical definition of a 'firearm in unshootable' condition.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
Good for the shooter that the bolt held.
Jim Watson
Member
I have a squashed Smith and Wesson that I bought from a spare parts dealer as an example of Government Economy. There are a couple of outfits selling "parts kits" from confiscated guns too dangerous to allow back "on the street" and some of them include a sawn receiver. There appears to be a common sense element to determining the restorability of a scrapped gun.
Charlie98
Member
Well... stop right there. We ARE talking about a government agency... the BATFE... that has very little sense, and no common sense. What does the law say?
No it doesn't.
BSA1
member
I witnessed a similar incident once.
I was at match shooting large caliber single shot rifles. All of us were shooting from sitting position with most using cross- sticks. The 2nd shooter on my left rifle blew up. His left hand was horribly managed losing his thumb, first two fingers and about half of his hand.
We determined the cause was he accidentally loaded the case with smokeless powder instead of black powder. He fired two rounds without any problems. On the third round the gun blew apart.
The cases of the first and second rounds clearly showed they were over pressured. In addition he as a experienced shooter and should of realized when he shot the first round it was not black powder.
The story I eventually heard was he used the wrong powder when he handloaded the rounds at his home. At first he blamed either his son or one of his son’s friends for switching the powder when they were in his reloading room. The story did not make much sense and was discounted by most club members. It I think it was denial on his part that he made such a simple mistake when choosing the powder from the shelf.
It made a big impression on those of us that witnessed the accident about being careful when reloading ammunition.
I was at match shooting large caliber single shot rifles. All of us were shooting from sitting position with most using cross- sticks. The 2nd shooter on my left rifle blew up. His left hand was horribly managed losing his thumb, first two fingers and about half of his hand.
We determined the cause was he accidentally loaded the case with smokeless powder instead of black powder. He fired two rounds without any problems. On the third round the gun blew apart.
The cases of the first and second rounds clearly showed they were over pressured. In addition he as a experienced shooter and should of realized when he shot the first round it was not black powder.
The story I eventually heard was he used the wrong powder when he handloaded the rounds at his home. At first he blamed either his son or one of his son’s friends for switching the powder when they were in his reloading room. The story did not make much sense and was discounted by most club members. It I think it was denial on his part that he made such a simple mistake when choosing the powder from the shelf.
It made a big impression on those of us that witnessed the accident about being careful when reloading ammunition.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
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- 14,855
“De-milled” receivers are very commonly sold. They’re no longer a firearm, because they cannot be readily converted to fire.
So this destroyed firearm can sell without an FFL, like all of the de-milled FA’s and all of the gun buy-back chopped firearms, both of which sell every day and have for decades without FFL’s.
Charlie98
Member
I guess that makes sense... they sell M14 chopped receivers without FFL. I just didn't know that you could do it arbitrarily...
Jim Watson
Member
I asked about the load. The owner replied:
"Load was 48 gr of 3031 with Barnes solid copper 300 gr .458 bullet. Others that were loaded at that time were pulled and checked. They were spot on. I did NOT allow the stuck bullet in the barrel to be removed. I will leave that for the collector to pull or leave in place. It does have a hollow point copper bullet stuck and the front and rear of the next round in the magazine is still there. The center of the case was blown out. I am including a couple of rounds that were loaded for the gun along with the example that exploded. The case is peeled wide open and the barrel split open starting at the case, but it split along the milled slot on the bottom of the barrel, which weakened it. There is evidence of different colors of metal exposed, whether that is a flaw in the casting or some sort of evidence of heat treating the metal is up to interpretation. If it is sent back to Marlin, I will never see it again(lost in receiving dept), and I don’t want it replaced with a Remington made Marlin. Worth more as it is to the right collector. I am including pictures taken in the emergency room of what remained of my left hand. The buyer gets the pics, open if you have a strong stomach!! The proceeds will go toward a prosthetic thumb, probably an “M. Thumb”. Not covered by insurance. So far $90,000 in medical expenses. Not done yet. Dennis"
That is the Lyman starting load for a 300 gr JSP in 1886/1895 bracket. Solid copper would no doubt increase pressure somewhat but I would not think it enough to blow the gun.
Unfortunately, Barnes does not show loads with 3031.
"Load was 48 gr of 3031 with Barnes solid copper 300 gr .458 bullet. Others that were loaded at that time were pulled and checked. They were spot on. I did NOT allow the stuck bullet in the barrel to be removed. I will leave that for the collector to pull or leave in place. It does have a hollow point copper bullet stuck and the front and rear of the next round in the magazine is still there. The center of the case was blown out. I am including a couple of rounds that were loaded for the gun along with the example that exploded. The case is peeled wide open and the barrel split open starting at the case, but it split along the milled slot on the bottom of the barrel, which weakened it. There is evidence of different colors of metal exposed, whether that is a flaw in the casting or some sort of evidence of heat treating the metal is up to interpretation. If it is sent back to Marlin, I will never see it again(lost in receiving dept), and I don’t want it replaced with a Remington made Marlin. Worth more as it is to the right collector. I am including pictures taken in the emergency room of what remained of my left hand. The buyer gets the pics, open if you have a strong stomach!! The proceeds will go toward a prosthetic thumb, probably an “M. Thumb”. Not covered by insurance. So far $90,000 in medical expenses. Not done yet. Dennis"
That is the Lyman starting load for a 300 gr JSP in 1886/1895 bracket. Solid copper would no doubt increase pressure somewhat but I would not think it enough to blow the gun.
Unfortunately, Barnes does not show loads with 3031.
troy fairweather
Member
Well you can rule out 3031 for blowing. it. You could not get that much powder in the case.
Jim Watson
Member
True, top load is 60 grains which is compressed.
I looked at Barnes, https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/45-70Marlin1895Web.pdf , no help there.
I looked at IMR https://imrpowder.com/imr-3031/ 300 GR. SIE HP starting load is 58.0 grains IMR 3031, velocity 1,971 fps, 21, 900 CUP. I am really surprised that the reloader had pressure problems with 48.0 grains.
Here is a SWAG:. The bullet stuck for an instant and created conflicting pressure waves. I think that if you are loading low levels of powder, especially with a copper bullet which is harder to compress than a lead, that the bullet should be coated with a lubricant to make it easier to engrave in the throat. If the bullet halts, pressures will spike.
As noted by @375NoLess , the RUAG subsconic bullet has a grease ring. I believe this is to reduce friction between the bullet and barrel.
.308 Subsonic Reloading Myths?
3) BULLET LUBRICATION
Some say lube and some say not needed especially with copper jackets. Some say even with copper go with Moly. I am not sure where to start here.
I would say that, at great expense, I purchased some RUAG factory .308 subsonic (apparently used by police and military in Europe) which has a 200 grain FMJ with a ring of lube around the ogive, see picture below. This ammunition is clearly of the highest quality and they are lubricating the bullets, see picture below.
Jim Watson
Member
Re barrel wall thickness, .45-70 in .30-30 action.
Many years ago, Jac Weller wrote a series of gun factory tour articles for American Rifleman.
He said that Marlin was sending .444 barrels out to Remington to be heat treated for the higher pressures.
Wonder what they are doing about the skinny .45-70 barrels. (Which were not in production at the time of that old article.)
I can visualize the slip-stick phenomenon. I think copper bullets are like Cordite, best left to the factory. I don't get the immediate "barrel obstruction" knee jerk reaction, though.
Many years ago, Jac Weller wrote a series of gun factory tour articles for American Rifleman.
He said that Marlin was sending .444 barrels out to Remington to be heat treated for the higher pressures.
Wonder what they are doing about the skinny .45-70 barrels. (Which were not in production at the time of that old article.)
I can visualize the slip-stick phenomenon. I think copper bullets are like Cordite, best left to the factory. I don't get the immediate "barrel obstruction" knee jerk reaction, though.
troy fairweather
Member
I load 52.5 3031 as my light hunting load for 300 and 350 grain. My Siamese has had some very stout loads. Shot a bunch of solid copper bullets I was given never had any problems with 3031.
Well that is what he says the load was....and he could really think that is what the load was, but I doubt I am the only one sitting here thinking....ahh yea right.
I am super anal about reloading.....I have said before, I am not really sure why but my wife likes my face, and after trying to rip my thumb off after hitting a deer on my bike I do kind of like my fingers all working....so generally I check everything....I am in no race when reloading....I listen to music, take my time and just relax....when the kiddo was home it was dad's off limits time.
I weigh, drop powder, weigh again, put bullet in then weigh one last time....yea it is super at eating minutes off a clock, but everything is really close to everything else....take pride in your loading, you are not trying to supply the red army with ammo.
I am super anal about reloading.....I have said before, I am not really sure why but my wife likes my face, and after trying to rip my thumb off after hitting a deer on my bike I do kind of like my fingers all working....so generally I check everything....I am in no race when reloading....I listen to music, take my time and just relax....when the kiddo was home it was dad's off limits time.
I weigh, drop powder, weigh again, put bullet in then weigh one last time....yea it is super at eating minutes off a clock, but everything is really close to everything else....take pride in your loading, you are not trying to supply the red army with ammo.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
If I am reading this right it really doesn’t matter what the load was that he fired and blew up the gun or what any of the loads at home measure out to when pulled.
What matters is he appears to have had a squib load just before he fired the fatal load that destroyed his gun but more importantly his hand.
I feel bad for the guy and hope medical science can help him get back to a productive life.
I swear, every time I start considering buying another progressive press I read about some tragedy like this. I think I will stick with my slow and low tech single stage.
What matters is he appears to have had a squib load just before he fired the fatal load that destroyed his gun but more importantly his hand.
I feel bad for the guy and hope medical science can help him get back to a productive life.
I swear, every time I start considering buying another progressive press I read about some tragedy like this. I think I will stick with my slow and low tech single stage.
ThomasT
Member
I own several Marlins and decided to measure the outside diameter of the barrels on a 357 a couple of 30-30s, 44 mag and 35 Remington. They all had the same outside diameter barrels. So a 30-30 has a lot more steel around the bore and chamber than the 44 mag I own. I am guessing the 45-70 barrel is the same way. Thats something to keep in mind when hot loading a 45-70 or 444 Marlin.
troy fairweather
Member
Was this the first shot. I have had mud dobber make a nest in a rifle barrel in just one afternoon sitting on the porch. Now no matter the gun or how long it sits.I always check the bore.
ThomasT
Member
I have an even better story. My buds brother made several hundred extra dollars on a job and din't want his wife to know about it. So for reasons only he would know he rolled up the money and hid it in his Remington 1100 barrel. And forgot about it. Until dove season. The first shot filled the air with paper confetti. He was puzzled until he picked up a few pieces and then remembered the money he hid. That was the end of $350 bucks.
Does anyone have a link to the pictures of the guys hand? I looked and couldn't find them.
My grandfather was a custom gunsmith way back in the 1950s through around about 1970. He made a man a hunting rifle in 8mm Mauser. The guy reloaded it with 48grs of Bullseye instead of 48grs of 4350. It blew out the side of the barrel and split the stock in the forearm but otherwise didn't hurt the gun. My GF rebarreled and restocked the gun and told the guy to be more careful. Advice that was probably not needed.
Jim Watson
Member
I think the pictures come with the purchase of the remains of the rifle.
Gordon
Member
That barrel needs metallurgical exam by a competent third party. The cause can be determined if over pressure or steel flaws.
someguy2800
Member
Interesting. I had assumed that he made that ad as a tongue in cheek type of deal. Maybe meant as way to take a public jab at Marlin. I guess he really does think it has significant collector value. I doubt that it has any collector value whatsoever, but I do wish him the best of luck.
skeeterfogger
member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2019
- Messages
- 1,280
Think given 30-30 and 35 similar compatibility would have thicker of the walls. Both being bottle neck would also have higher pressures than the 44 and 444 which both are sustainable in same barrel design. The same barrel design bored for the 45-70 though still should be sustainable under the load criteria.
There again is that one skewed powder drop squib.
GBExpat
Member
I have a rack mounted for my one-piece cleaning rods, each with a patch holder & clean patch. After a selecting a rifle or pistol to use, I always take a moment to quickly run one of those cleaning rods thru the bore ... just to be sure ... prior to heading out.
No excess oil, mud dauber nests or other such surprises in my bores.
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