Bayonet

The bayonet expresses the will of the soldier to continue the fight.

There was an American Officer during the War Between the States that stated that those soldiers not willing to take the steel to the enemy if it became necessary to do so where not worth their food or pay.

I know World War II was a long time ago...but I have heard and read so much about how useless the bayonet was in that war. Yet I was fortunate enough to have grown up around men that would tell me that but for that bit of steel they would not have been around at the time they were speaking to me.

Sure, enemy casualties by the bayonet were few and seem to planners and some historians to have hardly been worth the cost of issuing bayonets. To the men that caused those few enemy casualties the question of whether it was worth carrying the steel was another matter.

I understand that these days most Infantry carry short rifles and so the experts tell us there is no advantage in having a bayonet. Indeed an American with an M4 caught in mid magazine change by say someone coming around a corner or out of a doorway only a step or two away has only a 34 inch long bludgeon until he can reload and bring his rifle to bear. If you were the guy with the bludgeon at that point can you see you might wish for a pointy bit with an edge upon it out near the end pointed away from you at that moment?

We have all sorts of blade experts here that have taken many forms of blade craft fighting classes. Can anyone actually claim that transitioning to a sheath knife would be faster than using a bayonet already mounted during an action?

part of the value of the bayonet is the elan it instills. Morale is important.

Surely no one wants to close with the bayonet and would use rifle fire in its place if they could, but sometimes a young leader may find himself in a situation that looks like inescapable death for themselves and their charges. The troops will know it as well. Is there a command that can give more of a rush than the cries of "PREPARE TO FIX BAYONETS! FIX....BAYONETS!" that might lead to a victory?

It used to be that every American Soldier learned a code that explained why we were soldiers and what our duties were. part of it was "...I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender those under my command while they have the means to resist..." You can shoot your last magazine and throw your last grenade, use up your last radio battery and still have a bayonet.

As a young soldier the only officers I thought worth the price of the paper of their commission were those I was sure that when the time came would give the two commands "Fix Bayonets!" and "Follow Me!" but of course I was just a light weapons Infantryman and not a planner or historian so what did I know?

-kBob

Shanghai McCoy said:

^^^
And that, among other reasons, is why I joined the Navy...

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If you'd been just a bit smarter you'd have realized the USAF not only doesn't carry all that stuff, we usually ride or fly where we are going. And when we are done we head back to the base with good chow, cold beer and a fair number of the opposite sex to share the above with.

jeepnik said:

If you'd been just a bit smarter you'd have realized the USAF not only doesn't carry all that stuff, we usually ride or fly where we are going. And when we are done we head back to the base with good chow, cold beer and a fair number of the opposite sex to share the above with.

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Well, good point, but I don't like heights, or flying, which may be why I ended up volunteering to train as a salvage diver while I was in...
Sea level, and below, is better for me.

I remember my Dad telling me that if he had it all to do over (He was 28 years an Engineer, 1942 to1970) he’d have gone in the Air Force (Army Air Corps all those years ago...).

He said that when he and his men were sleeping in the mud... Air Force guys had beds.

kBob said:

part of the value of the bayonet is the elan it instills. Morale is important.

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In the early part of WW1, the French made elan into a fetish, with their red pants and kepis. When questioned about this, a French politician said, "But the red pants are France!" It didn't take them long to learn through bitter experience, and they changed to horizon blue and steel helmets.

Bayonets today are similar to this. Somebody is refighting a war from a hundred years ago. That's not to say that bayonets might not be useful in some limited circumstances. Last-ditch charges are not one of them.

You've heard the expression "there are no atheists in the foxholes". My money is on anybody going to war will prefer having a bayonet to not having one.

I have a half dozen bayonets for my WWII rifles and they definetly degrade accuracy noticably when trying to shoot with a bayonet mounted. They also definitely throw off the balance of the rifle. The Russian Nagant spike bayonet I have gives the most reach for the least weight. The short sword (Enfield) and knife (US) style bayonets I have are heavier and do not fix as tightly as the spike bayonet so they impart an obnoxious wobble when affixed to the rifle which degrades the shooting acuracy even more.

However if I was sent off to war I would darn sure want a knife on me. Since I am already carrying a knife it might as well be easily mounted to the barrel of the rifle I am carying to maximize the utility of the weight I have to carry. If nothing else some hungry GI might be able to spear a fish.

What surprises me the most about the bayonets I own is they are pointy but they are FAR from sharp! If I am carrying a knife I would like to be able to atleast cut an apple in half without mashing it. I do not understand why the blades on all the bayonetts I have seen are so dull. And it is not that they have dulled over time they came from the factory dull. Like considerably duller than a butter knife dull. The WWII entrenching tool I have is sharper than my Garand and M1 Carbine bayonets.

CapnMac said:

Until the universal adoption of the machine gun (and also armored vehicles), one of the primary "anti infantry" combat arms was cavalry, mounted troops in some guise. (Also why infantry companies were formed of four platoons, so they could "form square" against horse attack.

As a half-ton of charging horse is hard to stop, you want as much advantage as you can. A pike or halberd is actually the best defense, so, a long knife on a long rifle can be made into a useful substitute.

That is, until horse are replaced on the battlefield.

Then, it became the ultimate depiction of close-quarters battle, and of last-ditch stands.

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I believe the Germans deployed more horses than vehicles of all types during their blitzkrieg offensives in Europe at the start of WWII. Of course Poland was very proud of having one of the best calvaries in the world at the start of WWII. Where the Pols used their horses on the front line the Germans used their horses in the back line support positions and the limited armor they had as a unified force on the front line.

From my very small surplus collection it seems like the Europeans prefered longer rifles and bayonets than what we in the US issued. I wonder if this was due to the large number of horses used in the European militaries?

My understanding is that the Germans used Cavalry in the east until quite late, manly for hunting guerrillas.

There is a reference to a mounted German Officer in one of the 101 AB books though I do not recall mention of mounted units

Back on topic though, it strikes me as odd that on a board where most of the traffic is about knives that so many would find the bayonet objectionable.

I will be first to admit that affixing a bayonet changes point of impact.....which is why one does not fix a bayonet until one expects the range to any target to be under 100 meters. Once the range gets down to four meters however the availability of a bayonet can far outweigh its effect on accuracy and give an empty rifle a great deal of added lethality.

A bayonet also gives you another option at close quarters combat range even with a loaded rifle. If your position is being over run firing your rifle may result in, well shooting your buddies. Even a 5.56 round can cause multiple casualties in a crowd ( as can most centerfire handguns for that matter) a bayonet will cause no casualties beyond its length.

Further a bayonet has great utility in handling prisoners or crowds and if it is not available to do so, it just ain't.

As to the current bayonet, well I did a review of them when they first came out and was pretty much under whelmed. I used the saw back to improve some tent stakes. Cut up some meat for the kitchen. Dug with it. Used it to cut a live 110VA house current line. Stuck it on a rifle and did both some actual pre 1970 bayonet drill and post 1970 dancing around quick and dead stuff. Used the sheath sharpener. Used the bottle opener to pop open a Dr. Pepper and sat around and thought about it.

The out come? Well the biggest was that Primus wanted my publisher to pay for the knife as they had expected I would take a few photos and use their press release and call it a review. The only thing I really liked was the ability to cut a hot electric line, chain link fencing, common field fence and two strand barbed wire. Razor wire took a bit more effort.

I did not like it as a fighting knife or bayonet or camp knife. I hate that broom handle grip.

In all honesty were I still going to bad places with an M16 based rifle I would much rather have an M7 and a leatherman tool and try to stay away from live electric lines.

But I am just a grumpy old man from the past stuck in the 21st century where other folks know better....

-kBob

You're not alone...

A bayonet is about the most useless thing a soldier can carry.

Until the bolt locks back.

I carried a bayonet on my cartridges belt from 59 to 65. Never used it excepting on the bayonet course. I still think they have a use. One never knows when the s.... will hit the fan.

been reading about this. in WW2 trench warfare commonly lead to hand to hand combat, based on WW1 - bayonets were readily used, and they mass produced 3 million or so trench knives for anyone not carrying a rifle to have. think they saw a lot of use in the trenches. I wasn't there, so - I don't really know, but I'd want one for sure. Been thinking of getting some just to have around, seems like a decent tool to have an if there were used in the past, they'll be used again in the future.

film495 said:

been reading about this. in WW2 trench warfare commonly lead to hand to hand combat, based on WW1 - bayonets were readily used, and they mass produced 3 million or so trench knives for anyone not carrying a rifle to have. think they saw a lot of use in the trenches. I wasn't there, so - I don't really know, but I'd want one for sure. Been thinking of getting some just to have around, seems like a decent tool to have an if there were used in the past, they'll be used again in the future.

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With the price of good originals rising, you might want to look at some of the reproductions. I don't know about their quality, but that is why we have these forums.

Bayonet use was more predominant in the earlier wars. The removable magazine semi- autos have diminished their use, as well as better supplies of ammo. The supply chain has greatly improved since the Korean war, when a GI faced ammo shortages on a daily basis. Also take into account making a charge with a single shot or a muzzleloader. Warfare has changed immensely, making the use of bayonets rare. I was surprised to learn of their use in modern times, and am grateful for the DIs that are able to continue with the education.

Jesse Heywood said:

With the price of good originals rising, you might want to look at some of the reproductions. I don't know about their quality, but that is why we have these forums.

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The reproductions aren't at the stage where they would fool even a reasonably knowledgeable collector. Pay more and buy an original. You will be money ahead in the long run.

A few years ago, I had a eye-opener on this. I spent $75 for an Indian-made reproduction Civil War bayonet. On close inspection, it turned out to be utter junk. A few weeks later, at a large antique gun show, I was able to buy an original in good condition for $110. The difference is like night and day.

Something not generally mentioned about the non-use of bayonets these days is that the rifle you'd mount one on simply isn't suitable any more. The difference between an M-14 (my first issued weapon, basic training, 1968...) and my later weapon, an M-16 is just night and day. Actually using a bayonet in the field requires that it be mounted on a very sturdy combat rifle, period. So... we move on... but for close quarters work when the ammo is gone (or almost gone) against a determined foe... a mounted bayonet sure beats bare hands or your helmet....

No, I didn't like bayonet training, and if bayonets were needed I sincerely pray that I'm somewhere else... but in extremis... they still have their place if you're using older battle rifles... and they certainly still have a place in riot control...

AlexanderA said:

The reproductions aren't at the stage where they would fool even a reasonably knowledgeable collector. Pay more and buy an original. You will be money ahead in the long run.

A few years ago, I had a eye-opener on this. I spent $75 for an Indian-made reproduction Civil War bayonet. On close inspection, it turned out to be utter junk. A few weeks later, at a large antique gun show, I was able to buy an original in good condition for $110. The difference is like night and day.

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I bought 2 authentic M5A1 bayonets from a buddy of mine for $20. Even when I bought them I knew real ones are and will continue to be hard to find. I gave one to my brother who now has a Garand to put it on. I probably won't be getting one for mine however.

My rifle has always been the M16/M4. So a M9 bayonet is more likely in my future than a Garand is.

MikeInOr said:

What surprises me the most about the bayonets I own is they are pointy but they are FAR from sharp! If I am carrying a knife I would like to be able to atleast cut an apple in half without mashing it. I do not understand why the blades on all the bayonetts I have seen are so dull. And it is not that they have dulled over time they came from the factory dull. Like considerably duller than a butter knife dull. The WWII entrenching tool I have is sharper than my Garand and M1 Carbine bayonets.

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I have a large array of bayonets ranging from the 1790s to the 1990s. Most of those that actually saw combat have dull edges and sharp points.

Bayonets are primarily thrusting weapons like pikes and spears, not cutting weapons like swords and knives. Dull edges are less likely to get jammed in a wound, according to most authorities. Many have wide and shiny blades, which seem to be very effective psychologically against men and horses but don't actually penetrate as well as slim, edgeless blades like those used with the Mosin Nagant and later SMLE rifles.
Later U.S. bayonets are pretty much just knives that can be mounted on rifles and aren't very good as bayonets, either as combat weapons or as psychological weapons.
Nonetheless, they still look good when mounted on their rifles... .

Last time that I attached a bayonet to a rifle was in Basic Training. Lot's of lunging and twisting them into swinging dummies.

theotherwaldo said:

I have a large array of bayonets ranging from the 1790s to the 1990s. Most of those that actually saw combat have dull edges and sharp points.

Bayonets are primarily thrusting weapons like pikes and spears, not cutting weapons like swords and knives. Dull edges are less likely to get jammed in a wound, according to most authorities. Many have wide and shiny blades, which seem to be very effective psychologically against men and horses but don't actually penetrate as well as slim, edgeless blades like those used with the Mosin Nagant and later SMLE rifles.
Later U.S. bayonets are pretty much just knives that can be mounted on rifles and aren't very good as bayonets, either as combat weapons or as psychological weapons.
Nonetheless, they still look good when mounted on their rifles... .

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Very interesting! I know bayonets are poking weapons and not slashing weapons but it always seemed like a sharp edge would be an extra convenience with no negative. I would have never suspected a sharp edge would get stuck in a wound easier... I appreciate the information. Maybe when poking someone in the chest a sharp edge would part way cut the cartilage of the breast plate that would then grip the blade where a dull blade would just push the cartilage aside? I can see how the rounded off profile of most of my bayonets would make twisting it in a wound easier. Having never stabbed anyone I had never thought of such considerations.

this sharp or not question comes up every year or so on THR.

Seems most Bayonet leave the factory not sharp or not well sharpened.

Generally those in charge want dull bayonets so troopies will not cut themselves or one another with them in garrison.

I will say I have unpacked brand new M7 bayonets that could have cut you on the long edge and yet I own bayonets from around 1900 that are less of a cutting danger than the spoon I am eating ice cream between typing with at the moment.

A bit of Company level arms room equipment in the seventies was a hand cranked grinding wheel with two guides. One guide gave an Entrenching tool a nice steep last for ever tool edge like one might want on a shovel or hoe (go figure) and the other put a much shallower angle like one might want as a starting point for a sheath knife.

I used that wheel to clean up all my platoon's bayonet edges ( and e-tools) long and "False" and then used a stone to get them all sharper. I used the wheel only on another platoon and taught the other's arms room assistant to use the wheel.

Our Company Commander expected anything that looked like a knife to be sharp. In fact if he found a pocket knife in your locker he would inspect it and if it was not clean, oiled and sharp berate you infront of your room mates.

So basically sharp or not sharp was a command discission.

So were the pattern 1908 bayonets the Light Horse used in their WWI charge sharpened on the edge as they used them for sabres?

As a kid I sharpened mine, though it did not have the obviously blunted edge of some of the German stuff sent to South America.

In the pre 1970 Bayonet drill (think katas for bayonet fighting) we practiced "The Slash" got to wonder what the point of that was with a blunt edge don'cha?

We used t laugh that they made us turn in bayonets to the arms room the same as a rifle, supposedly so we would not cut each other up, while requiring us to keep our sharpened e-tool unsecured on top of our wall lockers....so a dagger was evil but a battle axe was OK? Of course each of us had a mess kit knife and there were extras floating around. Those bits of stainless steel got sharpened, and you could sharpen them to a shaving edge, and even carried by those to cheap to buy a knife down town in civies. My little craftsman file and two sided stone got me a LOT of pogie bait, soda and beer when I lived in barracks!

-kBob

-The sharpest U.S. military blades that I have come across were those early-1900s mess kit knives. Amazingly sharp and really held an edge.
Bayonets, on the other hand... .

waldo

by the early 70's there were two kinds of mess kit one was a single piece of "flat wear" that would not have shocked Herr Krupp in the a
1860s The other had a hefty handle that appeared to be zinc that we thought came from WWII. these last took the best edge but the stamped single bit of steel could be sharpened to shaving as well though they did not hold an edge as well. when used as a personal knifle the stamped knives often got a wrap or three of OD green duck tape on the handle If I had had a can of Dip Coat I could have turned a nice profit on the can

Guys would make sheaths sometimes with belt loops from the card board our dress shirts came from the laundry folded about and more Duck tape. I lived in fear of someone cutting them selves through the flimsy sheath. I made a sheath with a folded over bit of soda can taped in the edge but no one else seemed to think such was necessary. I was told a few got tossed into near by gutters or trash cans upon the approach of either local law enforcement or MPs and that at least one may be in the Danube. A German police friend showed me a drawing made from a wound in a murder case and I had to tell him that every one of us had at least one blade that matched that profile.

M7 bayonets had blades that seemed to be lot specific. Older blades were as good as any M3 and up blade made. It seemed that later contract blades were made of crappy steel and ground with worn wheels that left stirations and sort of toothy edges. When you sharpened them beyond what the grind stone could do the edge tended to roll of or even sort of break. Call me what you like but the sheaths were numbered and the knives not so as soon as I found a crappy blade one of the other platoons lost a good one. For an up coming event I tried to sand down a few of the bad blades and polish them up. From across the parade ground or from the reviewing stands they looked pretty good, but not up close.

MS Myer used to sell Nickeled or chromed M1942s for Drill teams with M1 Rifles or 03 Rifles. We debated buying some in high school but did not because they were dull. It would impress a crowd when after a drill one of the supernumeries would hold out a sheet of notebook paper and one of the drill team members would neatly slash the page. No need to tell the crowd that was THE sharp blade, now was there? Sure made you pay attention on exchanges in the performance. The adults stepped in and made us stop after one year Honestly the bayonets detracted from our neat appearance as they were a mix of modified 1905s and M 1942 and had at least three different point shapes.

--kBob