Grandson 1st Deer Rifle

Boattale said:

I'm getting another grandson his first rifle to take to deer camp. Henry single shot youth .243. I'm thinking fixed 4X Nikon or maybe Burris. Thoughts?

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Sounds good, though maybe a youth bolt action repeater might be more practical. I always liked fixed 4 power scopes and never saw the real need for a variable on the average hunting rifle. I felt that they were more about "bells and whistles" rather than an actual need, unless you were shooting long range.

Iron sights definitely, and practice with them.

For the longest time, I was an iron sight guy. Then one day I had Mombo Buck step out in front of me just before sundown when I was in the bottom of a narrow canyon. With the bright sky above the rim behind him, the low light level made it impossible to see him over the sights, and I am not one that shoots at what he can't see. After giving me three opportunities (lifting my rifle into shooting position while standing still) to shoot, he walked off up the side of the canyon never to be seen again. My Rem. 788 wore a Leupold VX-II 2-7x33 the following year.

I own and like both Burris and Nikon scopes, but may I also suggest the Weaver 1-4x variable. Nice light scope with decent optics, a good FOV at low power. I've had good luck recently with Weaver's warranty service.

Boattale said:

I got my belly full of M-16 when I was USMC. Never owned an AR 15 and never will. Much less start my grandson with one.

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So just because you had more than your fair share of time on a gun means you’re going to keep your grandson away from them too? That’s makes total sense. Sorry for your grandson. He’s going to miss out on a lot then if you follow that mantra.

My father laughed at me when I bought my first AR-15, said it was junk in Vietnam and nothing had changed. First range day and 300+ rounds down range with no failures and he was mildly curious. Back then I thought placing a bottle of CLP in the vicinity of the rifle was “running it wet” and yet it still ran.

Dad still doesn’t own an AR but I’ve got several, my wife has one, my kids will each have at least 1, and in my opinion we will all be better for the experience. I did buy him a polymer Kahr and he’s all but hung up his 1911 since then. Took him 65 years to change and he’s had 7 years of realizing what misconceptions can cost.

OP, I hope you’ll reconsider at least introducing your grandkids to black rifles. If they’re considering at some point military service then you’ll be able to jump start their training.

I can respect your feelings on that, and, here comes the continued prodding (sorry, honestly not trying to pester), maybe talk to his parents about a project build with the whole family included, and maybe in 6.5 Grendel to make it deer worthy.

Boattale said:

There is no way on earth that my grandson's first deer rifle is going to be an AR that I buy. To me all an AR offers is a way to shoot .223 fast and often. Who needs that for deer hunting?

When he gets a little more age on him, what he likes and has is not up to me.

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An AR offers WAY more than that, but if that's all you can see then there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

Marlin 30-30 with a Weaver 1 X 3 scope. Short, light, mild recoil, confidence for a new shooter. YMMV.

Boattale said:

When he gets a little more age on him, what he likes and has is not up to me.

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Fair enough. I'd say your grandson is a lucky fellow, however you choose.

And as my boss once said, if we all had the same tastes, everyone would be trying to marry my wife.

Boattale said:

I'm getting another grandson his first rifle to take to deer camp. Henry single shot youth .243. I'm thinking fixed 4X Nikon or maybe Burris. Thoughts?

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Bless you for being involved. I have gone through this with wife & two kids. Can be tough to get it right.

SCOPE
I am a Leupold man. Had good results with them. Doesn't mean others are junk, though it does mean you have to work harder to make sure you get acceptable quality in your price range.. My go-to scope from Leupold for most everything is their 2-7x33. Used to be in VX-1 and VX-2 trim, now I would buy VX-freedom as the default.

4X is enough magnification for most big game shots for youth or adults. My worry is on the low end and with field of view. At dusk & dawn, in shadow, or other low-light, the ability to go low power makes a big honking difference in being able to see the critter and then engage it. I teach my wife & kids to keep the variable at the lowest power setting by default and only crank it up when that is advantageous. Most shots taken on 2X.

RIFLE
Looked it up. A beautiful rifle.

Some basic specs:
6.95 lbs unloaded, without a scope
LOP 13"
OAL 36.5"
.243Win
Solid rubber recoil pad
MSR $448

STOCK
As was mentioned, the stock is not up to the task if the rifle is scoped. And Boyd's does not produce a replacement of any sort. Don't let your grandson have to float his head to get in-line, figure out a way to get a good cheek weld. I would suggest either one of those pretty leather lace-on risers if you want to keep the whole deal pretty. If you need something quick & practical (and a trial to see how much riser you need before ordering the spendy leather lace-on deal), the following worked great for my kids Crickett rifles when I scoped them:
0. Temporarily (with the knowledge you will modify as needed) mount scope in the rings+base you will use on the the rifle.
1. Figure out where your GS's cheek will generally come into contact with the stock.
2. Take some pipe insulation in a length to cover the top side of the stock and stick that on it. Let your GS mount it and see if it is high enough. Add another layer or partial layer to build up to where your GS gets a good cheek weld and can see straight down the scope.
3. Use a conforming bandage/wrap (stick to itself without hardware ace bandage) to keep pipe insulation in place.
4. Use big sheet(s) of mole skin to protect your GS's skin from conforming bandage.

That is such a beautiful stock, you might want to keep extra materials around so if your contraption gets soaked, you can tear it off at the end of the day and re-apply. So the wood does not get water damage. Same with lace-on riser.

Boattale said:

I got my belly full of M-16 when I was USMC. Never owned an AR 15 and never will. Much less start my grandson with one.

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I hear ya. Not only the AR-15 platform, but camouflage. After leaving the service I wanted nothing to do with either. Gave me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. It took me 20 years to get over it and I only did so because it was an impediment to squaring away my wife & kids properly. After trying every other way, I finally figured my hangup did not mean more to me than my wife's and kids' success and hopeful appreciation & adoption of hunting and shooting sports. So I gave my inner child some wall-to-wall counseling and got to business.

Olympus said:

I've never been a fan of youth model rifles strictly because they are so limited in terms of use. People end up getting 2 maybe 3 years out of them and they end up selling or trading them for something else and usually they take a pretty good hit on the money when they go to sell. In this day and age, there is no shortage of guns that can be useful for kids that they can keep with them and grow into for many years to come or for the rest of their life even.

Obviously, the easiest choice is a collapsible stock AR platform gun. Plenty of kids start out with 223/5.56 with a heavy weight bullet and have good success. If you were opposed to that caliber, you also have 300 Blackout, 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 Grendel that are all very good deer calibers inside 200 yards that you can get in the AR platform...

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USEFUL FOR HOW LONG?
Olympus makes some good points. My kids have not shot their Crickett rifles in a long while. I bought a new Boyd's stock for the inexpensive compact/youth .243Win I bought to fit my boy.

.243WIN YOUTH RIFLE
Folk say the .243Win is a great youth cartridge to start off with. Maybe so, if the youth is of pretty good size. My 5'-nothing less than 100lb wife found its recoil intolerable without a thick PAST recoil shield (a great investment for shooters new and otherwise). Before the shield, pain and inconsistency, even with a quality recoil pad on the stock.. After the shield, 3 shots to zero. Yes, the .243Win produces less recoil than .308Win, but it still can be too much for many shooters mature enough to move up to a centerfire rifle. Then there is LOP. My wife does best with 11.5"-12" Shortest fixed stock LOP on a bolt or single shot rifle at the time was 12.5".

We made the Ruger compact/youth rifle in .243Win (sub 6lbs before glass & ammo) work for my wife, but it wasn't ideal. The stock has since been replaced with a Boyds to fit my (now larger than my wife) boy.

DAUGHTER
My daughter was a real hard case. At 12YO with years of rimfire rifle, IDPA, wingshooting and such under her belt. But she was and is built so tiny, like her mom, and not yet full grown: inches less than 5", maybe 75lbs).. She needed something light, that fit her, did not have much recoil, and that had enough power for deer, hogs, etc. Looked at bolt guns, single shots, lever guns (in magnum pistol cartridges), but nothing came close to meeting the requirements:
Sub 6lbs before glass & ammo
LOP less than 12"
Recoil minimal enough for her to manage
Cartridge powerful enough for deer & hogs

Tough. It was then that I figured I might have to get over myself if I was going to get her hooked on hunting before it was too late.

Ended up building her an AR-15 in 6.5Grendel. It fit the bill:
Less than 6lbs before glass
LOP & OAL
Recoil mild enough she can shoot all day until I run out of ammo or money.

I built the lower from a PSA lower kit with 6-position collapsible stock, blemished lower, and Larue MBT-2S trigger (great, reasonably priced trigger). Upper I bought from Alexander Arms, 16" bbl, ULW profile bbl. Leupold VX-1 2-7x33 in a Warne one piece mount. Only doo-dads were a 2-point sling set up patrol-style to take the rig's weight while at low ready and a small bit of picatinny rail up front in case she needed the game light for hogs. This rifle will last her through adulthood and anyone in the family can extend the stock to fit.

Results? One axis deer doe on her 13th birthday. Sweet.

Shot at 125 yards, one Hornady 123gr SST behind the shoulder. Doe gave the "I been shot" hop into the air, took off, and collapsed in a heap 100 yards later. During cleaning, saw that she got both lungs, the SST turned them to chum, entrance wound the size of a dime, the exit wound the size of a quarter or maybe 50 cent piece.

I have another hunting buddy.

Just a few random images with descriptions for your consideration.


Clearly a Leupold buyer and Nikon as previously mentioned though I didn’t save many boxes back when. Today I’d vote Burris for quality and value.


SVL’s LimbSaver pads get added to everything they fit including my daughter’s 6.5 Creedmoor.


Of all the risers I’ve tried for kids the Accu-Riser is my favorite with multiple height combs included and Velcro or 2-sided tape.


Another daughter’s rifle with Beartooth riser and Accu-Riser (because Beartooth didn’t cut it. Sitting atop Caldwell Dead Shot tripod.

I had this problem years ago when there were no youth models on the market. A 30-30 94 was used along with a cut down 788 in 243. Tried SKS and AK but they were too front heavy for kids. At that time AR's were not legal. A Henry rifle would be good if not too long for the Kid. I would look at a youth bolt action. But your call. I prefer bolts over AR's because bolts are lighter, slimmer and easier to handle. But the low recoil, adjustable stock, and can be light enough make them a option but I agree that there are better choices.

d2wing said:

I had this problem years ago when there were no youth models on the market. A 30-30 94 was used along with a cut down 788 in 243. Tried SKS and AK but they were too front heavy for kids. At that time AR's were not legal. A Henry rifle would be good if not too long for the Kid. I would look at a youth bolt action. But your call. I prefer bolts over AR's because bolts are lighter, slimmer and easier to handle. But the low recoil, adjustable stock, and can be light enough make them a option but I agree that there are better choices.

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Bolt actioned rifles, even short actioned compact rifles with light synthetic stocks, are not lighter than an ar15 with a 16in pencil or ultra lightweight barrel. And no need for exotic parts. Been there, done that.

Use a heavy profile bbl on the ar15 or go nuts with doo-dads and the ar15 can get heavier pdq.

Boattale said:

I'm getting another grandson his first rifle to take to deer camp. Henry single shot youth .243. I'm thinking fixed 4X Nikon or maybe Burris. Thoughts?

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Good choice on the gun, but a 4x is neutering the cartridge's potential.

A 3-9x40 or 2.5-10x40 is a much better option.

For the first rifle, a 2X scope is plenty to use. My first rifle was a 30-06 and I had a 2.5X Weaver on it. It was in the late 1950s and being a mid-teen, had little money to buy a scope. However, I used that rifle/scope combination to average killing many woodchucks that averaged about 210 yards. The combination with my Savage 110 was quite deadly, but I only shot one deer with it (scarce back then), a 200 yard shot on a doe that was on a full run, while I was leaning on something. Unless you buy a variable, don't get anything more powerful than 4X for the first kid's rifle. In fact, a peep sight is even better (but remove the screw-in aperture).

.243, a cartridge that exists at all because there has been an echo chamber that has existed for years telling us how great a cartridge it is for white tail. Most overrated. I roll my eyes every time someone says what a great whitetail cartridge a .243 is. It's a chopped down .308 so why not just get a .308? It's not like recoil is so much more intense. My first rifle, dad bought, a Rem 700 in .243. Still have it, it makes a really nice dust collector. I shot a lot of deer with it and every time I shot a deer they were left with the strength to stand up if they were laying down and run to a nice thicket after a clean lung shot. Amazing how a deer can run 30 yards with a hole in it's lungs and you gotta get the dog to find it in the thicket. I hunt with an AK now, it's a better deer cartridge, honest. If flat shooting, light weight, and low recoil are what you want an AR is a lot better choice plus you have the option of adjustable stock and it will be something that will be of service for a lifetime. I guess a .243 would be better than no rifle at all, that's about it! Just my two cents.

cut the stock down to fit your grandson.

a fixed power scope is great for learning (keep it simple). you can always change the scope later when your grandson gets better.

luck,

murf

I also picked up a Henry, mine is in .357, for an all purpose camp/plinking/youth hunting arm. The LOP is deceiving. While it is an "adult" LOP, the way the rifle handles has given smaller framed shooters no issues. With the ready interchangeability of the stocks, I do wish they'd offer a shorter LOP stock as an aftermarket option, although the factory walnut could be easily altered. Cheek weld may be an issue, although the mount they sell for the rifle is quite low and requires removal of the factory rear sight assembly to install. I would think a buttstock shell holder (the wrap around kind) with a couple of pieces of stiff boot leather shimmed underneath the comb would more than suffice.

I like the idea of a fixed 4. I'm assuming you will keep ranges moderate for them. Simple and reliable.

I guess some naysayers can get ready and roll their eyes again, 'cause .243... with my scope set to 3X and using Winchester 100gr PowerPoints... has given me multiple 1-shot kills on Whitetails. They didn't go anywhere. That said, my rifle has open sights set for that round, too.

fireside44 said:

.243, a cartridge that exists at all because there has been an echo chamber that has existed for years telling us how great a cartridge it is for white tail. Most overrated...every time I shot a deer they were left with the strength to stand up if they were laying down and run to a nice thicket after a clean lung shot.

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How about a pass-through double-lung that knocked a big doe down and around a full turn? Tracked blood 600 yards by GPS with 4 people fanned out on a farm we hunted 20 years. My son was the shooter, me glassing at 80 yards with 7x Vortex Fury binos. The caliber wasn’t .243, he was using a 50cal. T/C muzzleloader with a 250gr jacketed bullet (sabot round) being pushed by 100gr. of White Hot.

Bone fragment at the scene, nice frothy trail, blood on both sides every 30 yards where she stopped to rest, 1 in the afternoon with bright sunshine, and nothing. 90 minutes weaving in and out, first deer I ever abandoned. Sometimes the will of a deer to flee outweighs what you shot it with. .243 is plenty gun for whitetail.

I was about to come into this thread and recommend a 243 for a deer rifle, so I definitely agree with your decision there.

Scope power definitely depends on the ranges you are planning to hunt; a 3x9 or 4x12 works great for that flat shooting round, but if you are in a swamp bottom or thick woods, you might have a deer pop up in front of you at 20 yards while an ADD kid has been fidgeting with his scope and left it dialed up to 9x. Speaking generally, I think a straight-4 would be a good fit for most hunting situations, but at very short ranges it may be too much and at 200+ yard ranges he may be wanting some more magnification.

fireside44 said:

.243, a cartridge that exists at all because there has been an echo chamber that has existed for years telling us how great a cartridge it is for white tail. Most overrated. I roll my eyes every time someone says what a great whitetail cartridge a .243 is. It's a chopped down .308 so why not just get a .308? It's not like recoil is so much more intense. My first rifle, dad bought, a Rem 700 in .243. Still have it, it makes a really nice dust collector. I shot a lot of deer with it and every time I shot a deer they were left with the strength to stand up if they were laying down and run to a nice thicket after a clean lung shot. Amazing how a deer can run 30 yards with a hole in it's lungs and you gotta get the dog to find it in the thicket. I hunt with an AK now, it's a better deer cartridge, honest. If flat shooting, light weight, and low recoil are what you want an AR is a lot better choice plus you have the option of adjustable stock and it will be something that will be of service for a lifetime. I guess a .243 would be better than no rifle at all, that's about it! Just my two cents.

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I'm the last guy to get into a caliber war, but how in the world is 123gr @ 2400 FPS a great deer round and 100 gr @ 3000 FPS inadequate.