38 special load data way short oal

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QuietMike

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The hodgon oal load data for 38 special I have says 1.455” I measured a factory round with the same bullet profile and it was 1.58” oal which is what hodgon calls for for 357mag,
Why is this now I feel like my 38spl is set way too deep
 
For any bullet with a cannelure or crimp groove you seat it so you can crimp into that which gives you the correct OAL for that bullet.

What data did you use? If you are seating deeper than that data then you will have to adjust the max down. The good news is with the big .38 Spl case and the low operating pressure it is much easier to stay out of trouble pressure wise than in some calibers.

What bullet? What powder? What charge weight? What OAL?
 
For any bullet with a cannelure or crimp groove you seat it so you can crimp into that which gives you the correct OAL for that bullet.

What data did you use? If you are seating deeper than that data then you will have to adjust the max down. The good news is with the big .38 Spl case and the low operating pressure it is much easier to stay out of trouble pressure wise than in some calibers.

What bullet? What powder? What charge weight? What OAL?
That is sound advice and a good explanation, use it and answering the questions will help us help you.
 
Just using the starting data, it’s. 158gn rn fmj bullet no cannelure, titegroup powder, hodgdon shows 3.5gn and oal 1.455” , the load data is with the xtp bullet which is a hollow point and sort of a flat point profile maybe that’s why the oal is listed as shorter.

So then I guess my real question is how far do I seat a regular round nose bullet when there is no example in the load data for that bullet
 
That factory round may have had the same bullet but it won’t have any of the same powder.
 
Just using the starting data, it’s. 158gn rn fmj bullet no cannelure, titegroup powder, hodgdon shows 3.5gn and oal 1.455” , the load data is with the xtp bullet which is a hollow point and sort of a flat point profile maybe that’s why the oal is listed as shorter.

So then I guess my real question is how far do I seat a regular round nose bullet when there is no example in the load data for that bullet

OAL is not an absolute. Hogdon is giving that as an OAL because they have tested that bullet with that charge and determined that 1.455 is the optimal OAL for that round.

Edit to Add: That should be 'bullet manufacturer' not Hodgdon that has tested the load and come up with the OAL.
 
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Typically you want a minimum of the bullet's diameter to be seated in the case for neck tension. Meaning a 38spl bullet should have at least .357" of the bullet seated in the case. When you have less that the diameter of the bullet seated in the case things become erratic/inconsistent. A chronograph will pick up on this. I've swaged my own jacketed bullets since 1990, the bullet's diameter is one of the things to consider when putting a cannelure on a home swaged bullet.

The other thing to consider when seating a bullet is where it sits in the leade of the throats in the cylinders. The top bullet in the picture has the shorter oal and you can see the bullet sits back from the leade in the cylinders. There is a gap/space where the cylinder's leade tapers down and the top bullet has to jump to enter that taper.
cXoGpNh.jpg
The bottom bullet is seated out further and sits in the leade. This creates better alignment for accuracy & it also aids in a more consistent powder burn/short start pressure.

Playing around making bullets for the 38spl/357's out of 9mm shell cases.
pn3N1Ro.png

The long body on those bullets have no problem getting more than .357" of the bullet seated in the cases. They provide excellent neck tension with that much of the bullet seated in the cases. Taking up that much case volume is also good for powders that are position sensitive. I put the cannelure on them so that they seat out in the leade's of the cylinders. The 150gr hp's are for the revolvers & the 175gr fn's are for a tc contender.
 
The hodgon oal load data for 38 special I have says 1.455” I measured a factory round with the same bullet profile and it was 1.58” oal which is what hodgon calls for for 357mag,
Why is this now I feel like my 38spl is set way too deep
Are you sure of that 1.58" for the factory 38 Spl. rd? That would be 357 OAL territory. I have doubts the round you measure would fit in a 38 spl. chamber.
 
So then I guess my real question is how far do I seat a regular round nose bullet when there is no example in the load data for that bullet
One like this typical RN?

Seat them so you can crimp into the crimp groove, that is your OAL for that bullet. Does your RN not have a crimp groove? Tell us which bullet or post a pic.

Crimp groove shown on the left, and seated/crimped on the right. (Lube grooves are below the case mouth in both pics)
Medium Plus Roll Crimp on .38 Spl D&J 125 Gr RFN Pic 1.JPG
Medium Plus Roll Crimp on .38 Spl D&J 125 Gr RFN Pic 2.JPG
 
Just using the starting data, it’s. 158gn rn fmj bullet no cannelure, titegroup powder, hodgdon shows 3.5gn and oal 1.455” , the load data is with the xtp bullet which is a hollow point and sort of a flat point profile maybe that’s why the oal is listed as shorter.

So then I guess my real question is how far do I seat a regular round nose bullet when there is no example in the load data for that bullet

That is a correct "guess" The XTP bullet is not the same profile as a RN bullet. It is more of a FN

Do you have any manuals??

The SAMMI specs listed below show

MAX OAL of 1.550 with a RN bullet.

As mentioned above you can use the Hodgdons data for the lead bullet OAL which is 1.455
Speer lists 1.500 so anywhere around that will work, If it fits (the cylinder) it ships:)

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
 
Honestly, because it is a rimmed cartridge and indexes off the rim...the OAL isn't a huge issue. I have all kinds of factory 38 ammo that is all over the place in OAL. Want extreme? Look at a Rem Golden Saber...they're seriously long. Like everyone else is saying, just seat to the can and you'll be a-ok. If the projectile doesn't have one, just reference of of a similar projectile. Follow powder charge guidelines and you'll be fine. I load double base wadcutters and they are seriously short.

Vsm3U5Ph.jpg

...but they work just fine.
 
Almost all my 38 special brass is shorter than recommended case trim length after firing. I just keep loading to the crimp groove on the bullet and keep my charges low. Plus I only fire them in a .37 magnum gun. I don't worry to much about OAL on 38 special rounds.
 
So then I guess my real question is how far do I seat a regular round nose bullet when there is no example in the load data for that bullet

It's just a guess.

This is one reason I always advise new reloaders to start with components that there is published recipes for.Later on, when they are more familiar with reloading, they can better extrapolate and reload components where info is sparse or non-existent. While .38 special is a low pressure round, it is possible to reload over pressure rounds for it, especially when using fast powders that use low volume. While OAL is not important fopr feeding in revolvers as long as the cartridge fits in the chamber, setting a bullet deeper than the base of the bullet in the recipe used, creates less case volume and can lead to higher pressures. With starting data, you are probably fine. As others said, you should compare OAL to bullets in similar weight to similar profiles.
 
One like this typical RN?

Seat them so you can crimp into the crimp groove, that is your OAL for that bullet. Does your RN not have a crimp groove? Tell us which bullet or post a pic.

Crimp groove shown on the left, and seated/crimped on the right. (Lube grooves are below the case mouth in both pics)
View attachment 859418
View attachment 859420
That case on the right looks seriously longer than the one on the left. Is that really a 38 special case? Looks closer to a .357 magnum case.
 
That case on the right looks seriously longer than the one on the left. Is that really a 38 special case? Looks closer to a .357 magnum case.
Yes, I used a .38 Spl case to set the bullet on to show the crimp groove, and a .357 case to show it crimped into the crimp groove, which got them on the same level to make a good pic. I did the same thing with .44 Spl and .44 Mag cases for crimp pics. :)

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Welcome to THR! What @buck460XVR said! And I'll add you should also try to compare bullets with similar technologies - jacketed to jacketed, etc.
My data has the HDY XTP (not flat point) bullet at .675", so if the case length is 1.150", there's .370" of the bullet in the case at the Hodgdon load data length of 1.455". If you want to you can measure your bullet length and then adjust the COL so the case volume is the same, assuming it will chamber. OTOH, the start data is usually very very safe, so, if I have a "similar" bullet, I'll use the start data and chrono the load. I shoot my .38 specials out of my .357 magnum 686, so there's an added layer of safety there. Good luck!
 
I think a better question is what brand ammunition is manufacturing ammo for .38 spl that is loaded to .357 mag length.

Check your calipers and make sure they are zeroed when closed.

I measured a factory round with the same bullet profile and it was 1.58” oal which is what hodgon calls for for 357mag

I agree with kcofohio in that you won't be able to close the cylinder on those long rounds. Won't be any different than putting a .357 Mag in your 38 spl and trying to close the cylinder on it. It isn't going to happen.

Like everyone else is saying, just seat to the can and you'll be a-ok.
He said there is no cannular on this 158 gr FMJ bullet.

Lyman's 49th is saying that a 160 grain lead bullet in .38spl with 3.6 grains of Titegroup is making 877 fps. Your using 158gr FMJs.
A full metal jacket is going to run much slower in velocity due to much more friction per jacketed instead of lead, with the same load, but due to the higher friction of the jacket, the pressure will rise in the cylinder, so be careful with that in the future.
Also as someone else here said, look at where the base of the bullet is seated in the case of a similar jacketed bullet and seat to the same depth, What is sticking out of the case isn't important as long as you can close your cylinder.

Myself? I would stay with the powder manufacturers recommendations. I dont' know what bullet you are actually loading but the overall length of the shank of the bullets will have to match the XTP to be able to interchange the data.
If you have a modern 38 special that is +P rated, and your bullet matches the XTP shank length, and seat to the same depth, then you could go up to 4.3 grains of Titegroup with an OAL of 1.455" and still be safe.
 
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OAL is not an absolute.
This is correct.

Hogdon is giving that as an OAL because they have tested that bullet with that charge and determined that 1.455 is the optimal OAL for that round.
This statement is in error. Hodgdon is simply Reporting the OAL they used in their test. Just like they Report the weight of the powder and weight of the bullet they used. There is nothing optimal about it. What they are saying is "This is what we did and the results we got. Now go make it work for you." In other words, the information they offer is nothing more than a Lab Report.

Edit to Add: That should be 'bullet manufacturer' not Hodgdon that has tested the load and come up with the OAL.
Sorry, but Hodgdon (along with Winchester and IMR) are the ones doing the testing. The bullet makers send them free samples hoping their name will appear in the next edition load manual.
 
Just using the starting data, it’s. 158gn rn fmj bullet no cannelure, titegroup powder, hodgdon shows 3.5gn and oal 1.455” , the load data is with the xtp bullet which is a hollow point and sort of a flat point profile maybe that’s why the oal is listed as shorter.

So then I guess my real question is how far do I seat a regular round nose bullet when there is no example in the load data for that bullet
Which bullet are you using that doesn't have a cannelure? Are you sure it's for the .38 Special?

You ask about the OAL but the seating depth is set by the bullet manufacturer in the form of a crimp groove which is correct for that bullet? Again, which bullet are you using that doesn't have a crimp groove? Are you sure they are FMJ bullets and not plated bullets?

Pictures will help like said above.
 
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