This caliber vs that caliber.
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Varminterror
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This isn’t necessarily real in the world - but it’s a very straightforward analysis. In the real world, we’re stuck with effectively 3 action lengths and effectively 3 bolt faces, so the comparison described above, while VERY fair, just isn’t very tangible.
So, if we follow your guideline, “heaviest bullet at 2900fps.” That means every jump in caliber means a corresponding jump in bullet weight and equally, a corresponding jump in case capacity - and in this comparison, things become exceptionally obvious. To meet your description, you’re effectively talking about a comparison among: 77grn 223/5.56, 110grn 243win, 150grn 284win, 200grn 300win mag, and 250grn 375 H&H. Anyone who has done much hunting can recognize the incremental shift between each of these for game killing power. We’ve stepped up from a coyote cartridge to a deer cartridge, to an elk cartridge, to a moose & brown bear cartridge, to a dangerous game cartridge. We’ve also stepped up from a ~27grn powder charge to an ~80grn powder charge.
But this isn’t really how our world works most of the time. MOST cartridge comparisons aren’t comparing a mini length action to a short action, to a long action standard bolt face, to a long action Magnum, to an over-length Magnum - and certainly not talking about corresponding increases in case capacity, bullet weight, and caliber. MOST of the time when we talk caliber wars, we’re talking non-incremental changes among similar case capacities, such as 7-08 vs. 308win, 270win vs. 30-06, 300wm vs. 338wm... or worse, talking about totally unbalanced comparisons like 243win vs. 45-70, or 300blk vs. 6.5 Grendel.
And of course, enter a healthy dose of wholly subjective personal biases into that conversation, where folks pretend feelings equate facts, and things get even more silly.
d2wing
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1. Shot placement, accurate, faster target acquisition, flat shooting and proven accuracy is better. 2. Bullet performance. Penetration and expansion appropriate for the game hunted. 3. Energy, sectional density, caliber and mass appropriate for the game hunted. 4. Recoil is a factor due to human factors as well as speed of repeat shots in some cases like dangerous game. Rule of thumb bigger and faster is better up to a point. As we well know hunter bias is probably the biggest factor in selection. The range from optimum to useable is pretty big. A lot of useful information in many posts on here, thanks guys.
d2wing
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Lol. very good point. But after trying it, I am way too lazy for all that clean-up. I am quite spoiled by my Tikka in 7-08. Of course I think it is the right choice for everybody else too, lol. Maybe I should dare some one to prove me wrong.
Varminterror
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I think it’s the nature of the environment we’re in. It’s fair to say most “caliber discussions” cannot ignore the cartridges the respective calibers are in, and ultimately, the rifle actions they are chambered for. If we all had double rifles and break actions, with non-standardized action lengths and bolt faces, the conversation would be a more gradual spectrum, but that’s not the world in which we live.
So it’s very fair to discuss the implication that increasing caliber disproportionately disadvantages the larger bore, since it doesn’t get a commensurate cartridge increase. A 338 Federal looks rather anemic on paper, with a plain 308win nipping at its heels. Why? Because it’s a heavier car without a bigger engine. A 338 federal isn’t more capable than a 300 win mag, simply because of its caliber. A 7mm Rem mag also isn’t necessarily less capable than a 300win mag just because of caliber either. The cartridge is the capability to manage a given bullet weight, meaning a given sectional density for a given caliber, which all wraps up tightly into “what can I do with it?”
Alternatively, look at pistol and revolver cartridges. Revolvers and pistols aren’t constrained by common bolt faces, action lengths, and mag boxes. When we increase caliber there, typically we are commensurately increasing powder capacity. A 32H&R is capable of less than a .357mag, which remains less than a 44mag, which remains less than a 454casull, which remains less than a .475 Linebaugh. A 32acp is less than a 380, which is less than the larger case 9mm, which is less potent than a 40s&w. The 45acp is anomalous there, at a lower pressure standard, but it still remains in line for potency. We have a few other oddities in the mix at lower or higher pressure standards, but within a given pressure class, caliber ranking tends to dictate ballistic performance ranking as well. That isn’t the case for rifle cartridges.
So while you might not like it, it’s really not apt to talk about calibers without considering their cartridges.
MTMilitiaman
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Those could arguable be considered specialized roles though. For the vast majority of us, hunting is mostly deer, maybe black bear or hogs, and the occasional elk. Defense is probably going to be limited to a couple tweakers that end up as a stain in the hallway because they manage to get between you and your kids. Body armor or really big and dangerous game is few and far between for most of us.
I've seen deer shot similarly at similar ranges with 10mm Auto, 5.56, .243, .308/.30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and .338 RUM. Most of us would agree that on paper, there is a world of difference between the 5.56 and the .338 RUM. But in my experience, the results were about the same. Deer runs 40 to 60 yards and piles up. Maybe over a larger sample size, one would start to see a little more difference emerge in the length of time the deer were able to stay on their feet after being shot, and for sure when one field dresses the animal, the difference in the damage to internal organs seems dramatic. Larger and more powerful calibers probably give you more effective range, and maybe provide a little bit more margin for error and more options for shot presentation. I get that. But for the average hunter taking the majority of their game inside 100 yards, there just isn't that much difference. If you put a 62 gr Barnes TSX from a 16 inch barreled AR-15 behind the shoulder of a deer, it dies. Most rounds probably have all the penetration necessary to poke a hole through the lungs of your typical deer. As you get up in game size, it helps to have a little bit more mass and diameter, but these animals still aren't bullet proof. Some of the most successful elk hunters I've ever known have used cartridges that are pretty anemic by today's standards; .243 Win, .25-06, .270 Win, all loaded with some variant of JSP that they could find at their local hardware store. The idea that you need "x" amount of energy, or some Earsplitten Loudenboomer to humanely take game at responsible distances for most of us is rubbish. And that is what caliber debates always descend into. People get so caught up with such-and-such caliber that the idea someone could be successful with something else becomes offensive, and before you know it, you have two otherwise rational adults squabbling over this caliber vs that like someone is insulting their children.
Specialized roles like dangerous game hunting, long range hunting, or what would be considered traditionally more military use (body armor, defeating cover, ect) may require more specialized rifles and equipment. But even then, there is usually a relatively wide range of suitable equipment, and I don't think we really need to get as caught up in it. Having good gear is nice and can make a lot of jobs easier, but getting all caught up in minor details does no one any good. Humans are tool users and the tools we use matter. If all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails. But arguing ad nauseum about the difference between 21 oz and a 24 oz hammer I think is rather childish and counter productive.
Texasgrillchef
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Thats the point i was trying to make, for most hunting of deer, elk, and similar animals at average ranges. Almost any caliber/cartridge will work. Things change a bit when your shooting large and dangerous, or even small animals, or when distance or collateral damage is of concern.
I for the most part believe other then those few exceptions. Use the caliber cartridge that you feel most comfortable and enjoy using the most and dont worry about what others are using!
How do you figure? I started with calibers. Most of the posts were saying why the caliber splits are what they are. Available cartridges for the caliber is a factor.
I was trying to get a discussion going that might point something out that I haven't considered.
lysanderxiii
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Mass goes as the cube of the size increase.
The bullet weights make larger jumps even though the diameter increases are similar or sometimes smaller. For the same ballistic shape a 6mm is around 100 to 110 grains, in 6.5mm 130 grains, .308 around 180-190 grains, but .375 it jumps to 350 grains.
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This plays a big part. The steps don't go like that for the common bullet in each caliber.
6.5 and 7mm have higher than average SD bullets.
On the other side, 358 has lower than average.
Most don't compare based off equal sectional density. Or they compare based on cartridges that aren't properly suited to the bullet diameter.
I believe in the "bigger through hole" theory of lethality. That is, the bullet that makes the biggest through hole will promote the most bleeding, and therefore will be the most lethality. Central nervous system hits are good if the brain is switched off. You can shoot an animal through the spine and the creature can survive days with its back legs useless, so there are limitations with central nervous system shots. But, if an animal lives and breathes, make it bleed enough, and it will stop breathing. This is always true and will always be true. Blood loss is a 100% kill mechanism.
And the discussion ought not be velocity but bullet expansion at distance. Standard bullets don't expand below 1800 fps, so when the bullet drops below the speed of expansion, all you are doing is poking a small hole in a living creature. A bigger hole will promote blood loss and maybe clip a vital organ. I am of the opinion that shooting at animals at distances where the bullet does not expand is unethical because it increases the animal's suffering. Surely the long range types view animals as no different than video arcade targets. But animals are not video arcade targets. These are creatures that don't want to die, and they feel pain.
You notice, what you read in the press, they rarely conduct real ballistic tests. The writers may shoot at ballistic blocks at 25 yards and then brag about the 800, 1000, or even 2000 yard performance of the round. In my opinion, if they are going to claim the round is a great hunting round at 2000 yards, they ought to show bullet expansion at the 2000 yard bullet velocity. Of course, they don't, even though the programs exist which analyze tissue damage, the volume of damage, and the depth of penetration.
And then, where are the shooters who can keep all their shots in an eight inch circle at range? Eight inches is a good approximation of the lethal zone on most game animals. If you are going to be ethical, you should have the skill set to keep your first and last shots in the lethal zone. This is to reduce animal suffering. Shooting something in the ass or the gut and having it run off to die in horrible pain days later is very unethical.
The further you go out, the more the wind moves the bullet, and I will tell you, wind movement is very unpredictable and it moves differently around hills, valleys, trees, fields. And yet, many ignore this critical aspect of shooting. Let me tell you, shoot sufficient Smallbore Prone, where the bullet has the ballistic coefficient of a spit wad. See the point of impact move radically, and yet, you never saw the arrival of the condition change. And after scanning the field, shooting some sighters, you never saw it go away. After years of this, you will become very paranoid about wind. It can make you somewhat superstitious. Some malevolent thing is messing with you, and you can't see it. But it is there.
Caliber discussions are relevant if all you are doing is punching holes in targets. Higher ballistic stuff bucks the wind better and therefore makes for a better target round.But, I would say, 99.99% of cartridge discussions ignore the marksmanship abilities of the shooter. Hitting a target, where you aimed it, is not determined by the gear you purchased. It is a skill and it takes practice.
And the discussion ought not be velocity but bullet expansion at distance. Standard bullets don't expand below 1800 fps, so when the bullet drops below the speed of expansion, all you are doing is poking a small hole in a living creature. A bigger hole will promote blood loss and maybe clip a vital organ. I am of the opinion that shooting at animals at distances where the bullet does not expand is unethical because it increases the animal's suffering. Surely the long range types view animals as no different than video arcade targets. But animals are not video arcade targets. These are creatures that don't want to die, and they feel pain.
You notice, what you read in the press, they rarely conduct real ballistic tests. The writers may shoot at ballistic blocks at 25 yards and then brag about the 800, 1000, or even 2000 yard performance of the round. In my opinion, if they are going to claim the round is a great hunting round at 2000 yards, they ought to show bullet expansion at the 2000 yard bullet velocity. Of course, they don't, even though the programs exist which analyze tissue damage, the volume of damage, and the depth of penetration.
And then, where are the shooters who can keep all their shots in an eight inch circle at range? Eight inches is a good approximation of the lethal zone on most game animals. If you are going to be ethical, you should have the skill set to keep your first and last shots in the lethal zone. This is to reduce animal suffering. Shooting something in the ass or the gut and having it run off to die in horrible pain days later is very unethical.
The further you go out, the more the wind moves the bullet, and I will tell you, wind movement is very unpredictable and it moves differently around hills, valleys, trees, fields. And yet, many ignore this critical aspect of shooting. Let me tell you, shoot sufficient Smallbore Prone, where the bullet has the ballistic coefficient of a spit wad. See the point of impact move radically, and yet, you never saw the arrival of the condition change. And after scanning the field, shooting some sighters, you never saw it go away. After years of this, you will become very paranoid about wind. It can make you somewhat superstitious. Some malevolent thing is messing with you, and you can't see it. But it is there.
Caliber discussions are relevant if all you are doing is punching holes in targets. Higher ballistic stuff bucks the wind better and therefore makes for a better target round.But, I would say, 99.99% of cartridge discussions ignore the marksmanship abilities of the shooter. Hitting a target, where you aimed it, is not determined by the gear you purchased. It is a skill and it takes practice.
Very well put.
My experience is limited to deer and pigs. I've notice totally opposite results with them. Pigs need bigger diameter and heavier to anchor them. Deer respond very well to bullets at 3300 fps and higher. 3000 fps and less may or may not cause an instant incapacitation.
I also pick my shots carefully because I don't enjoy tracking things.
d2wing
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Everything dies when it is heart shot in a very short period of time. CNS are not as reliable killers no matter what some self appointed guru tells you. Massive tissue damage to the heart and lungs is a sure killer. Blood loss kills if the wounds are big enough and in the right place. A bleeding deer can go a long time and sometimes recover. That is shot placement is primary, using a high velocity properly expanding bullet works best. The caliber or cartridge is not important within limits as another poster pointed out. Making a big hole is great but with not as good as massive tissue damage.
May I toss out the heavy, soft, and fast theory of wounding....
A soft, heavy for caliber bullet, with enough SD and mass to penetrate clean thru on most angles, driven fast.
There are limits to this working as game weight increases, and it causes a LOT of meat damage so shots need to be chosen accordingly.
Large case to bore ratios are also usually required.
Magnums excel at this theory when driving their heaviest bullets at 3000-3100fps
Bullets like Bergers, Amax/eldms, original Balistic tips etc, are what I've used.
Initial tissue disruption is usually substantial, and exit wounds range from significant, to.....ewwww.
A short range hit usually still causes so much damage the animal doesn't make it very far, if it moves at all.
Thru all this a larger bore dosent necessarily matter that much, as long as a heavy enough projectile can be driven to achieve complete penetration, at least from a mostly broad side presentation.
Just my personal theory, and I have seen it fail spectacularly, tho i can count those on one hand.
d2wing
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Ahh, I have often said, bigger and faster is better. As a former Ma Deuce gunner I can tell you that it is true. Limited by how big a rifle you can carry and how much recoil you can take. As I get older I make do with less.
Texasgrillchef
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I don’t hunt deer and the like. I mainly shoot hog, Javalina, and other creatures that creat issues around the house. Although I do eat the wild hogs I hunt.
The caliber vs caliber debate isn’t just about hunting though. It makes a difference in HD/EDC as well.
As far as hunting goes, it makes a difference in what we are hunting, where we are hunting it and the reason we are as well.
I have seen very few comments on collateral damage or the possibility of it. Your a irresponsible hunter if your hunting and shooting and not considering possible collateral damage on missed shots, or on shots where the bullet simply pokes a hole and keeps on going. I am a firm believer that all bullets should be stopped by the animal your hunting and not continue it’s path to hit something else that it should not be hitting.
My belief is that some soft skinned animals such as deer can do just fine with smaller calibers moving at high velocity, while other animals need a larger heavier slower moving bullet. It’s just plain silly to hunt squirrel and possum with a 50bmg, just like it would be silly to hunt elephant with a 22LR. Hunting deer? Can be successfully and ethically hunted with something as simple as a 22lr or a 50bmg. Although killing a deer with a 50bmg will reduce the amount of viable venison that will end up on your dinner table. Due to the cost of 50bmg bullets and the guns, I doubt anyone actually would ever hunt deer with one. Plus I think most people will agree it’s way overkill.
Speaking of CNS head shots making a reliable kill. Again a 22lr to the head of a dear may still leave the deer alive and suffering. However, I doubt a 50bmg to the head of the deer will leave that much of the head left.
I am exaggerating the point that caliber/cartridge can matter, but it’s all within reason. Each caliber has its own strengths and weaknesses. Keep in mind many if not most caliber/cartridges were original designed for military purposes to kill people and cause other harm, not for the purpose of hunting.
The whole purpose of hollow point expansion is to make the bullet bigger. So why not start with a bullet that’s bigger in the first place and move it at the same speed?
Now in terms of HD/EDC. Statistically speaking. In self defense shootings. It has been shown that the vast majority of incidents are resolved in two shots or less. It has also been shown that calibers between 380 and 45 has shown zero advantage for any one specific caliber in that range. With most all incidents ending in 2 rounds fired or less. Meaning 2 rounds of 380 acp ended the problem as quickly as 2 shots of 45acp.
However. It was shown that calibers for self defense smaller then 380 did require a significant number of more shots fired at 3.5 shots needed to end the incident. The statistics do not include the police firing their weapons.
So does caliber/cartridge size matter? Yes it does. How much it matters depends on the purpose. However, Does it matter more then shot placement? No it does not. Because any shot made that doesn’t hit its intended target is even more dangerous and a hazard to life that we don’t intend to make.
The caliber vs caliber debate isn’t just about hunting though. It makes a difference in HD/EDC as well.
As far as hunting goes, it makes a difference in what we are hunting, where we are hunting it and the reason we are as well.
I have seen very few comments on collateral damage or the possibility of it. Your a irresponsible hunter if your hunting and shooting and not considering possible collateral damage on missed shots, or on shots where the bullet simply pokes a hole and keeps on going. I am a firm believer that all bullets should be stopped by the animal your hunting and not continue it’s path to hit something else that it should not be hitting.
My belief is that some soft skinned animals such as deer can do just fine with smaller calibers moving at high velocity, while other animals need a larger heavier slower moving bullet. It’s just plain silly to hunt squirrel and possum with a 50bmg, just like it would be silly to hunt elephant with a 22LR. Hunting deer? Can be successfully and ethically hunted with something as simple as a 22lr or a 50bmg. Although killing a deer with a 50bmg will reduce the amount of viable venison that will end up on your dinner table. Due to the cost of 50bmg bullets and the guns, I doubt anyone actually would ever hunt deer with one. Plus I think most people will agree it’s way overkill.
Speaking of CNS head shots making a reliable kill. Again a 22lr to the head of a dear may still leave the deer alive and suffering. However, I doubt a 50bmg to the head of the deer will leave that much of the head left.
I am exaggerating the point that caliber/cartridge can matter, but it’s all within reason. Each caliber has its own strengths and weaknesses. Keep in mind many if not most caliber/cartridges were original designed for military purposes to kill people and cause other harm, not for the purpose of hunting.
The whole purpose of hollow point expansion is to make the bullet bigger. So why not start with a bullet that’s bigger in the first place and move it at the same speed?
Now in terms of HD/EDC. Statistically speaking. In self defense shootings. It has been shown that the vast majority of incidents are resolved in two shots or less. It has also been shown that calibers between 380 and 45 has shown zero advantage for any one specific caliber in that range. With most all incidents ending in 2 rounds fired or less. Meaning 2 rounds of 380 acp ended the problem as quickly as 2 shots of 45acp.
However. It was shown that calibers for self defense smaller then 380 did require a significant number of more shots fired at 3.5 shots needed to end the incident. The statistics do not include the police firing their weapons.
So does caliber/cartridge size matter? Yes it does. How much it matters depends on the purpose. However, Does it matter more then shot placement? No it does not. Because any shot made that doesn’t hit its intended target is even more dangerous and a hazard to life that we don’t intend to make.
Amen
A lot of perceptions and biases. A lot if internet talk and not as much shooting going on.
Varminterror
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Even among front stuffers, different calibers and different charge weights made (and still make) significant differences in game killing power and effective range.
Varminterror
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It’s really not a matter of larger animals needing larger, slower moving bullets, but rather the shooter wouldn’t be able to tolerate the recoil, or required rifle weight to kill an elephant with the same mechanics as a prairie dog.
Polymer tipped bullets are standard fare for varminting, and many of us remain to kill deer with the same principle - a fast moving bullet with sufficient sectional density to enter, explode and create carnage in the internal cavity, and leave the core or shank to create a relatively small exit. Moving up from a 35lb coyote to a 300lb whitetail, it takes a lot more powder and bullet weight to accomplish this. Moving up to a 2,000lb bison, it would take even more. A great deal more. So instead, we look at a means to kill differently. Sure, it might mean tracking a little farther, but it also means we don’t have to haul a 30lb 416 Barrett in the field just for elk hunting. So we slow down the bullet expansion, eliminate fragmentation, and trade internal, temporary cavity volume for penetration.
A slow moving, heavy bullet will kill small game just the same as it does heavy game, but scaling impact velocities is 2800fps or greater with commensurately larger bullets designed for rapid expansion just isn’t as practical.
At least ONE thing's for sure... we are doing a lot of talking.
cheygriz
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Far too many folks have read Elmer Keith's books and, unfortunately, believed them.
You know, his belief that it takes at least a .458 WinMag to kill a prairie dog.
You know, his belief that it takes at least a .458 WinMag to kill a prairie dog.
Old Stumpy
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While amateur gun pundits have been arguing about ballistics and the best cartridge for many decades, Native American hunters and backwoodsman have reliably killed numerous moose and elk with a .30-30.
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