J.S & Pat Wolf

What book, what rifle, what caliber?

you have to use a 60 thousands wad between powder and bullet, even if it is a cupped or hollow base. use a good lube on the bullets. if your using smokless then dont do as i say. i would never ever fire a 45/70 round with out a full case. that is why i use real black or blackhorn 209 powder. dont compress, if your useing real black use a drop tube. if your rifle barrel is a 1/18 twist then 405 weight bullets spinn pretty fast. it can cause key holeing. usually not though. a 475 grain bullet is best for a 1/18 twist rifle. 40 to 1 is good. i use pure lead and paper patch. wipe between round. also when you wipe between rounds make sure the muzzle of the rifle has no grease build up on it. that grease build up at the muzzle is a false muzzle and can ruin accuracy. also make sure your forestock isnt too tight against the action of the rifle. if it is, as the barrel heat up your groups will get higher and wilder. it is best if you can slip a dollar bill between action and forestock. make sure your brass is perfectly clean before loading them. also if it is a single shot your shooting dont crimp the bullet into the case, just slip fit it in onto of the wad. hopes this helps.

P.S. thats a old old book, he passed many many years ago. much better info out their now.

Catman42 said:

P.S. thats a old old book, he passed many many years ago. much better info out their now.

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I have zero personal experience with 45-70, which is an "old" cartridge. Why is the fact that it's an old book make the information incorrect?

because the way to load is better now. his book is a good one if your living in the 1870/s and its very very interesting. i would never get the tight groups i do now if i loaded strickly by his way. i paper patch and i swage my bullets from pure lead. and the back of my rifle barrel is free bored for 1/2 inch to .459. the bottom of the bore grooves are .4585. i use a scale to weigh powder and if i use black i use a drop tube. also with black i usually go with dupex loads. that didnt start until harry pope came along. read it for history, its a fun read, not for tight groups.

It isn't a Trapdoor, is it?
Mr Wolf was replicating .45-70 Government, not Creedmoor or Schuetzen. .

His loads work very well in my Original 1873 Trapdoor. I either use 20 to 1 or 30 to 1 lead/tin mix depending on if I’m loading a carbine load or rifle load. The bore measures .461 and using the Lee 405 HB or 500 grain bullets dropping at .462 and sizing to .460 leave no leading.
At 100 yards every shot hits a 8”X10” steel plate or paper target with no keyholes. At 200 yards I can just make out a white blob and can only hit it about 70% of the time but no keyholes. This was with bad 62 year old cataract eyes but just had cataract surgery and had multi focus lens installed 2 weeks ago so hoping this gets to 100%.
These groups may be a shotgun pattern to some but for me trying to see through those sights and make out the target I’m pretty happy with the way this 137 year old gun shoots.

thanks for the input as i could not remember all you said. ive always wanted to get a spring field trapdoor and reline the barrel to a .458 diam bottom of grooves and 1/18 twist and then make it really talk. my stevens 44 an1/2 is a tack driver the way i shoot it. a close friend of mine, grandfather who is a very old rancher near me has a original 45/70 trapdoor. it is a as new steel on it and the bore looks like it has never ever been fired. i checked the serial numbers on it and it is not one of custers. i suspect in attics over on the rez near here their are custer spring fields. thanks for you info that you provided. creedmore is my style of shooting.

Col. Harrumph said:

Has anyone had success following their book's instructions?

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Col. Harrumph: J.S. & Pat Wolf's book on loading .45-70 cartridges was written to help replicate the 1873 US military cartridges used from 1873 until 1884 in the Springfield "trapdoor" rifle and carbine. The information in the book is excellent, particularly for a beginning black powder reloader. IF you are loading for an original Springfield .45-70 rifle, using black powder, You will achieve good results. Using smokeless powder loads, and the advice on bullet diameter in the book (.459") will usually result in key-holes on target and leading in the barrel. .459" bullet diameter will work with black powder but smokeless powder's higher burn temperature and different burning rate will require bullets of ,462 or even .463". As Reeferman pointed out in his reply, most trapdoor Springfield rifles have groove diameters of .461-.462. The three groove rifling is particularly difficult to measure accurately without specialty "V" micrometer leading many to believe that their rifle has a .458" bore.

Col. Harrumph said:

Has anyone had success following their book's instructions? I tried once and continued to get lots of keyholes anyway. I'm pretty sure the bore was clear before but it's well-leaded now.

I cast a new batch of 405 grainers (40:1 this time, 20:1 last time), and thought I'd ask you guys before making a second attempt.

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Are the bullets you casting .459 diameter or bigger?
Those are a must if you are firing these through an original Springfield trapdoor and not one of the current made replicas .

like curator said some of the bores were .463. you have to have a bullet that matches your bore, dont rely on bumping up. if you have a deep hollow base then it may bump up to fit your bore. those spring field can shoot very very well, just get the right bullet for it. it is a 1/22 twist. a 400 grain to 425 grain bullets is best for that gun. hollow base. slug your bore and get the right bullet. you can slug your bore easy. tap a over sized round ball into the bore and push it through the bore. then measure the outside dia,. their you are the daim of the bullet you should be using.

I started using 60 grains of Goex FF and stopped using any wads under LEE 405 HB and my groups have shrunk.

Malachi Leviticus Blue said:

I have zero personal experience with 45-70, which is an "old" cartridge. Why is the fact that it's an old book make the information incorrect?

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A couple of steps in the book have fallen into disfavor. One is drilling out the flash hole. Spence did this to duplicate the multiple holes in the original military cases. Likewise the use of magnum primers has been looked down upon. It has been found that regular primers produce less disturbance to the groupings.

But, as has been pointed out previously, Spence was duplicating the old military load not a target load.

Kevin

I never did try drilling out the flash hole but tried both primers and I didn’t notice any difference but then again I’m not shooting over 100 to 200 yards. It’s still relevant information at least it was for me starting out loading for my trapdoor.

i drilled out all my holes and use magnum primers. i shoot a swaged by me hollow base 425 grain bullet in my stevens 44 and 1/2. the barrel is a 1/22 twist and a gain twist barrel by smith of canada. my drilled out case and my paperpatched bullet with blackhorn 209 powder is a tackdriver. no fliers just tight groups at any distance. i even called the people who make reloader 7 and said is it safe to use reloader 7 in 45/70 cases with a drilled out flash hole. they said yes. my gun shot tight with reloader 7 and my paperpatched bullet. how ever i didnt like the recoil so i went back to blackhorn 209 powder. my cases are over 20 years old and still holding up.