earlthegoat2
Member
Unfortunately, not many folks know what you mean when you say “real +P”
Winchester .38 Spl 158gr LSWCHP +P in Clear Ballistics Gel.
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I know. It's a shame. All for new cartridge sales they degrade and restrict once great well performing cartridges.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
Just for the record, you wouldn't expect say something like a pencil barreled S&W M&P/Model 10 to get the hell beat out of it by feeding it 158gr/1000 FPS loads? What about a 642?
I’ll admit my knowledge and experience is quite limited compared to many, but in the years I’ve been reading about firearm issues, I have always read that SAAMI standard for .38 Special +P was 18,500 PSI for quite a few years and only fairly recently was increased to the current 20,000 PSI. I have never come across any information that it was formerly 22,000 PSI and was recently reduced to 20,000 PSI. Is it possible for someone to cite a reference for that?
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I shot some Buffalo Bore 158 lhp from my 640 snubbie & got 1004 fps. That was 10 years ago. I also tested their 125 jhp & got 1245 fps from the same gun with the 1 7/8" barrel.
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No I wouldn't. Those took fbi loads at 20-25k psi for years
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Why would a pencil barrel make a difference? That makes zero sense. I have never seen a revolver barrel go before a cylinder. Its obvious you have never done real gun or pressure testing.
If your reference the 642. It is +p rated for continuous use. So I wouldn't see an issue with it either.
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References are read in the lawsuit against sammi in the 70s or 80 from a few guys. Those guys who invented the 44 mag and 357 mag. Taffin and leignenbaugh(sp) and one other guy, his name slips my mind at the moment.
Also I encourage you to read writing of keith, peirce, taffin, skeeter and the like.
Sammi also took the 44sp from 18 or 20k psi down too 12k. The 45 colt from 20k to 14k.
Saying old guns were the cause. All the while in true black powder forum a 44 spl runs roughly 18k psi and the other aforementioned calibers aswell.
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RevolvingGarbage
Member
I didn't realize I was dealing with an expert...
I mentioned the pencil barrel because that's the era of gun which I was picturing. Not that the thinner barrels themselves were somehow a problem with heavy loads.
It's always been my understanding that pushing .38special to near 9x19 velocities was hard on the K frame and even the K's made for .357 didn't handle it well. The Air Force specifically also had problems with model 14 revolvers not standing up to repeated use with 158gr FMJ when it was loaded hot. The 642 I mentioned because it's a lightly constructed gun with an aluminum frame.
It just seems to me that if it was no sweat for any .38 Special to run on that kind of ammo, the major ammo manufacturers wouldn't be able to get away with selling such poor performing defensive loads as they do.
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BlueHeelerFl
Member
It has been stated many times on this forum that 38 spl rounds were loaded hotter in the past, and that older reloading manuals show this power.
Well now you know.
The problems you are referring to are from loads in the 25-26k psi range. 38-44 is where these derived.
The proof is out there if your willing to spend the time reading.
I've pointed out several sources/references of data from buffalo bore and names too look up for articles on this exact topic.
If I have too i will start using quickload as another reference along with using video of a model 10-5 pencil barrel to reiterate this. There are even several examples of this gun being reamed to 357 mag chambers and being fine.
All of this is out there for the reading and I've waisted enough time trying to help the op get performance out of a cartridge and gun that once use to perform in this manner that was useful.
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Thanks. I have been working 70 hrs a week and just haven't had the time to pull up anything.
That's more an example of more accurate measuring methods. CUP can ONLY measure the peak pressure, not the pressure curve.
I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. everyone here is talking about map (maximum average pressure) for the 38 special cartridge. all the numbers on the spreadsheet are map for the listed cartridge. for some reason, I can't find the map reference on it … my bad, i'll change that shortly.
until then, all numbers on that sheet are map.
murf
Shane in MT
Member
That's not a bad load for the snub 38 if you ask me.
I weigh penetration far more important than expansion.
I'd take this old load every day over a Glaser safety slug, or Civil Defense lightweight high expansion load.
I weigh penetration far more important than expansion.
I'd take this old load every day over a Glaser safety slug, or Civil Defense lightweight high expansion load.
Are you referring to yourself ?
I thought you were an HVAC guy.
I do commercial refrigeration. In all my free time and part time job I am a ballistics engineer
Excellent!
.455_Hunter
Member
OK- So you are a hobbyist just like a lot of other people. Some of us, however, actually do ballistics research for our REAL job.
Pretty sure me working 20 or more hours a week and getting paid for it qualified it as a REAL job
.455_Hunter
Member
I am curious- what do you do as a part-time paid ballistics engineer?
Develop/log load data for a specific company. Mostly I test, average, peak and log loads to requirements of stringed tests to be able to be published.
.455_Hunter
Member
I see. I frequently do work in terminal ballistics for gov't and commercial clients, ranging from small arms projectiles to explosively generated warhead fragments.
Have a good evening.
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