Black rifles prior to 1994

Status
Not open for further replies.

bersaguy

Contributing Member
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
1,301
Location
Tampa Bay
Aggrvaiting article out of NYT
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/opinion/assault-rifle-ban.html
Read I'd you want to, but its "blah blah blah gun owners are racist zealots blah blah no one needs an "assult weapon" blah blah blah 2A is bad for America.
Ok, but here's the deal. High capacity, intermediate caliber, semiautomatic rifles were not widely sought after until the government decided to ban them in 1994. Sure, you certainly had Ar15s Ak47s SKS...and horror of horrors...the M1 Carbine, what with its bayonet lug and 30 round magazines, which incidentally, were US government surplus, weapons that had been used in war(s)....literally weapons of war... sold to the US citizens...... by the government. But I digress. But please correct me if I'm wrong, but the AR15 didn't have nearly the cache it had by 2005 prior to the 94 ban.
That's what I'd like to know, how many of us here owned an AR, or AK or their variants prior to '94, and I mean prior to knowing the ban was coming. I remember my dad buying 2 SKS's right before the ban took effect. But prior to that, they weren't really high on the priority list.
 
Well, what do you expect from the New York Times?
As far as the popularity of m4orgeries, the threat of a future ban often starts a "banic"; a rush on AR-15s and clones. Obama's election caused one, and IIRC his reelection did. For awhile back when ammo was as scarce as hens teeth.
Before 1994 I had a few rifles, mainly lever actions. Around 1994ish I inherited my father's M-1 carbine, and a couple of his shotguns, but also, I couldn't afford too many rifles. In the last decade or so I've been better off and have a few more evil semiauto rifles, but also a few more lever actions as well.
 
That's what I'd like to know, how many of us here owned an AR, or AK or their variants prior to '94, and I mean prior to knowing the ban was coming. I remember my dad buying 2 SKS's right before the ban took effect. But prior to that, they weren't really high on the priority list.
They were for me. I've been collecting "black rifles" since 1968, that is, from the time I was able to scrape up enough cash to afford one. They weren't cheap, relatively speaking, even then.

Frankly, back then (and this was actually before the GCA '68) I was surprised that AR-15's were even available. Certainly, under the GCA '68, they could have been banned with a simple ATF ruling. I wasn't complaining that they weren't banned, but I was also aware that they might be on borrowed time. That meant that I allocated more funds to this aspect of my collection than I otherwise would have.

I think it's a bit of a misconception that AR's suddenly became popular with the AWB of '94 and then with its expiration. There was always an intense interest in them among collectors of military weapons, and others. They were common on the gun show scene, and at local gun shops, in the 70's and 80's. In fact the 80's were the heyday of collecting both "AW's" and full-fledged machine guns.
 
IMO it started in 1992 when a FBI sniper shot and killed a unarmed mother holding a baby while standing the doorway of her cabin followed by the siege and mass murder of over 70 men, women and children by the FBI and BATF in 1993. The gun ban passed in 1994 made many Americans feel the Federal Government had declared war on them. These events along with the Clinton Administration headed by Janet Reno and the BATF conducting inspections and revoking the licenses of FFL dealers across the country has created a level of mistrust in the Federal Government that still exists today.

The Federal Government covered up many of the facts surrounding these incidents and went on to promote many of the agents involved. Today thanks to the Internet abuse of power by Government agents is becoming easier to learn about.
 
Last edited:
What pushed the AR-15 to the top of the pile sales wise was the end of the "ban" in 2004
I disagree. The rise in popularity began in 1994 with the AWB. Which didn't really ban much, if anything. Basically an AR after the AWB went into place meant no flash hider or bayonet lug. That was it. Leave those features off and the rifle was legal. I bought 2 AR's during the ban. I had used a Mini-14 prior to the ban. That trend did continue after 2004, but it began in 1994. I have no doubt far more civilian AR's were sold 1994-2004 than in the previous 35 years. Lots of guys, including myself, bought new uppers after 2004 with the evil features.

The ban did limit NEW production magazines to 10 rounds for non-LE or military. But did not limit existing magazines. Some guns such as the Glocks in 40 and 10mm had only been on the market for a short time and existing magazines were difficult to find and expensive. But AR magazines and most 9mm pistol magazines holding over 10 rounds only sold at a small premium and were readily available. Glock, S&W, Beretta and others gave LE new magazines magazines marked "LE and Military use only" for free in exchange for the older unmarked magazines. Which they then flooded the market with. Unmarked AR magazines were imported by the boat load from overseas from 1994-2004. I used to see huge boxes of them at gun shows.
 
IMO it started in 1992 when a FBI sniper shot and killed a unarmed mother holding a baby while standing the doorway of her cabin followed by the siege and mass murder of over 70 men, women and children by the FBI and BATF in 1993.
I didn't detect a huge wave of sympathy for the Waco and Ruby Ridge people at the time. They were generally seen as fringies and cultists, even by the gun community. (Maybe it depended on what part of the country you were in.)
 
Back then AKs were $150, SKSs were $80, and gun stores had racks of both sitting idle, 7.62x39 was dirt cheap and abundant, including steel core. ARs were cheap as well, but not real popular. Sure, some folks were taking advantage of the surplus rifles and cheap 7.62, but overall prices and demand were down.

When Clinton started trying to ban them sales and prices started going up and have only continued to do so. Another even bigger affect happened when Obama came into the picture.
 
But please correct me if I'm wrong, but the AR15 didn't have nearly the cache it had by 2005 prior to the 94 ban.

There are lots of folks that just want something you can no longer buy. Look at the prices at a Barrett-Jackson or Mecum auctions for old cars or the price of transferable machineguns.

That said there were lots of us that had semiauto magazine fed rifles before people wanted to take them away. Just a lot more now, heck there are likely millions of owners that were not even born in 1994, they would be 25 today, “antique” in car years.
 
Prior to 1994, I had a Garand, a Mini-14, and an M1 Carbine. I was familiar with the M16A1 from military service, but had no desire for one. Then, some jumped up infringers said that I couldn't have one. So , I bought a "ban" Bushmaster Dissipator with no bayo lug and a non-threaded barrel. I also purchased all the pre-ban 20 and 30 round magazines that i could lay my hands on.

After the sunset I had the muzzle threaded, and still have that carbine. The absence of a bayo lug reminds me that there are idiots in government.

It was my 1st AR, but definitely not my last.
 
Last edited:
Back then AKs were $150, SKSs were $80, and gun stores had racks of both sitting idle, 7.62x39 was dirt cheap and abundant, including steel core. ARs were cheap as well, but not real popular. Sure, some folks were taking advantage of the surplus rifles and cheap 7.62, but overall prices and demand were down.

Maybe in your locale ARs were inexpensive back then, but the only ones I saw floating around in the late 80s were $650 for a basic A1 style rifle and $1200 for H-bars. A nice new Mini14 was around $350 so there seemed to be an awful lot more of them in people's hands.

I do think there was a.shift in people's view of guns over the past 50 years. It seemed like in the past, yes some people had large gun collections and shot a lot, but was somewhat unusual or at least folks didn't talk about it like now.
 
I didn't detect a huge wave of sympathy for the Waco and Ruby Ridge people at the time. They were generally seen as fringies and cultists, even by the gun community. (Maybe it depended on what part of the country you were in.)


I had some sympathies for the victims at Ruby Ridge; a 14 year old boy shot in the back after feds shot his dog, prompting him to fire on, unknown to him, federal leos, and a mother holding a baby through a window, unarmed.
In that it was seemingly more deliberative it was worse than Waco.
At Waco, the BATF basically opened up on the Davidians (also deliberate) and the front door of their compound, a major piece of evidence concerning who fired first, went missing. Then, the Hostage Rescue Team and the FBI tactical ninjas, crossed purposes, undercutting each other, prompting the conflagration at the end. Bureaucratic incompetence on prime time tv.
And A.G. Janet Reno had a report on her desk from the beginning, from professional profilers, stating Koresh and his followers had an apocalyptic complex, and if in a no - win confrontation, would likely self imolate.
Which is what happened.
I didn't really sympathize with the Branch Davidians. They were a cult. But that doesn't mean they deserved what the government did to them and it was a horrific example of federal LEO incompetence and over-reach.
You don't have to be sympathetic to a odd ball religious movement to be horrified at a government atrocity and gravely concerned for what it might presage for your country's future .....
 
I bought an SP1 in 1987 and had at least one SKS prior to the AWB in 1994. I've still got the SKS. I sold the SP1 shortly before the ban expired for twice what I paid for it.
 
I had some sympathies for the victims at Ruby Ridge; a 14 year old boy shot in the back after feds shot his dog, prompting him to fire on, unknown to him, federal leos, and a mother holding a baby through a window, unarmed.
In that it was seemingly more deliberative it was worse than Waco.
At Waco, the BATF basically opened up on the Davidians (also deliberate) and the front door of their compound, a major piece of evidence concerning who fired first, went missing. Then, the Hostage Rescue Team and the FBI tactical ninjas, crossed purposes, undercutting each other, prompting the conflagration at the end. Bureaucratic incompetence on prime time tv.
And A.G. Janet Reno had a report on her desk from the beginning, from professional profilers, stating Koresh and his followers had an apocalyptic complex, and if in a no - win confrontation, would likely self imolate.
Which is what happened.
I didn't really sympathize with the Branch Davidians. They were a cult. But that doesn't mean they deserved what the government did to them and it was a horrific example of federal LEO incompetence and over-reach.
You don't have to be sympathetic to a odd ball religious movement to be horrified at a government atrocity and gravely concerned for what it might presage for your country's future .....

Off topic, but, yeah, typical .gov LEO attitude - go in, gun blazing, with snipers, choppers, and APCs (btw - William Barr was the US AG back in 1992 during Ruby Ridge, under GHW Bush). I was pleased at the Fed's restraint at the Malheur standoff. It should serve as a model for future confrontations.

But back on topic, I had a Mini 14, but never considered a black rifle till the ban. Then, figuring the days of the semi-auto were numbered, I bought a Saiga in 5.56 and a Norinco SKS (on a student's salary). Still have them.
 
I bought and trained with an HK91 in 1979. My Ars and Aks are of interest to me because I am familiar with the operating systems. The mismanaged tenures of Presidents like Johnson, Carter, Clinton, and Obama were a different subject.
 
FWIW, I just looked up what I paid for my first two AR's (both Colt SP1's): $215 for a brand-new one in March of 1968, and $295 for a used one in like-new condition in February of 1971.

The reason the second one was more, even though it was pre-owned, is because that was during the hiatus when Colt stopped producing them. We didn't know when, if ever, they would be brought back. In the meantime we were satisfying our yen for black rifles by buying Armalite AR-180's.
 
I bought my first AR-15 (an SP-1) in April of 1977. For $340. Adjusted for inflation, that's $1200 to $1400 depending on which calculator you use.

I still have it.

By 1980 or so all my shooting friends had AR-14s and some had HK-91s or 93s or Mini 14s as well.

Damn near every male I know owns an AR-15.
 
Looking at the price of that AR in 1971.... That's the year I returned from my senior trip and went back to school... After I separated from the service I remember thinking that any job that paid around $12,000 per year would have me in fat city... So an AR for less than $300 - was still a piece of change...
 
I didn't realize that NYT piece was an opinion piece. Regardless, it does seem there is a wave of oppositional sentiment toward AR15s and their ilk by a large portion of the us population. And look, I respect that. However, setting aside for a moment the fact a ban is unconstitutional, a ban...or the spectre of one, creates artificial demand, which in turn drives supply. The sheer volume of weapons manufactured leading up to the '16 election was staggering. Then, after the election, the prospect of a ban more or less evaporated...so did the demand. Not completely of course, but to the point there has been a glut of low price AR's for a while now. Could you imagine, if in '68 you could have bought an SP1 for something like $70? Would you have bought one? I would have, and I wasn't even born yet. But at that price i would have found a way;)
My point is, if this group that calls for banning or confiscating guns is so appalled at how many of these rifles are in circulation, then why did they drive the market to create so many of them? You know, we banned alcohol once...you know what happened? A flood of illicit booze and a surge in violent crime, culminating in the St. Valentine's Massacre, which brought us the 21st amendment in '33 and the NFA in '34 (oversimplification I know, but not too far off)
 
Looking at the price of that AR in 1971.... That's the year I returned from my senior trip and went back to school... After I separated from the service I remember thinking that any job that paid around $12,000 per year would have me in fat city... So an AR for less than $300 - was still a piece of change...
That's right. In 1970, I got my first "real" job (as a GS-7 with the federal government) and it paid less than $8,000 a year. That was enough to live on comfortably. My monthly rent was $125. So when we talk about spending $300 for a gun, that was real money.

In 1975, I spent $750 (plus the $200 tax) for a Thompson submachine gun. I thought that was a really big deal. My car, new, only cost me about $2,000.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top