H4895 and IMR4895

The two powders have some crossover in terms of charge weights but I would never recommend anyone mix the two or use a mixture in the same case like what you have. Do they react together differently? Maybe, maybe not. I have used both types of 4895 - they do have different coatings on them.

The only answer I would be comfortable with would be to burn it or throw it away. Powder is just too inexpensive to cut corners.

303 British said:

PLEASE no "just burn it and buy more", I would really like an answer to this!

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First thing, WELCOME to THR.

Second, I won't tell you to "just burn it" but will tell you to sprinkle the powder on the lawn/garden to use as fertilizer (Better than just "burning it").

Why?

With someone else's reloads, you have NO IDEA what powders were in those cases and how old or what storage conditions they were subjected to - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/safety/gunpowder-stability

Not worth it.

Because you want a direct answer to your question: no, it would not be safe. It’s actually a pretty terrible idea and not worth it in the least. You have no idea what that powder is. Powders should also never be mixed and that is one of your first gut thoughts after seeing it - which should have made the decision after the first pull down!

Be safe, toss it and be completely done with it.

As LiveLife recommends, spread it on the lawn. It's a pretty good nitrogenous fertilizer. Also it can't wreck your rifle that way.

Well, since you got a few 'just burn it' answers that you specifically requested against, I will buck the crowd.

If you have been reloading for Lo!, These many years, you know what to watch regarding safety signals.

If that were my powder, I would start about 35 grains and shoot it over a chrono. Go up or down from there.

What you will find on the forum, is a great many well intentioned people. Most of the reloaders are just that - follow the recipe reloaders.

There are a few handloaders here - the type that are willing to extrapolate, interpolate, and experiment within self-defined safety parameters.
I am one such person, and have learned that there will be backlash from some, no matter what you do.
Handloaders have been using pulled and surplus powders for decades. I myself have developed good loads from pulled 1950s Soviet-block powders.

Perfectly safe loads can be developed from an unknown powder - but the techniques are opaque to most here.

Sheesh. Yes, you can make data for the homogeneous mix, and it's not even rocket surgery! Physics does not cease to apply just because someone mixed powder.

First, find a caliber you own for which Hodgdon publishes a downloaded H4895 recipe. Homogenize the mixture, very thoroughly, and load and fire one. There may be a lot of unburnt powder, but that's ok; brush it out of the bore.

Note: if you're wrong and the powder is in fact, say, H110, this could go badly. Hopefully you can tell the difference. . .

Now that you have a starting point, bump up the charge by 10% of case volume per step and track velocity. Somewhere in the neighborhood of published data for (H or IMR)4895, you'll see realistic rifle velocities. Now you have an idea of where the Starting Charge for you custom-blended 4895 is; proceed with caution.

Cautions:
If you've misidentified the powder, and it's a different extruded rifle powder, you might see really inconsistent low-charge velocity and never reach clean burning pressure; know when to take a hint.
If you stick a bullet and don't know it, you'll put your eye out kid; check the bore EVERY SHOT until you're observing consistent velocity
If you're not willing to invest a couple hours of careful experimentation, and accept the risk that you'll get it wrong- for the sake of science. . . skip it and sprinkle it on your lawn.

Caution, attention to detail, and a good grasp of the underlying physics still applies, even though you've broken the guidelines and the consensus is, "throw it out."

Edit: yup, what @Hooda Thunkit said.

Hooda Thunkit said:

Well, since you got a few 'just burn it' answers that you specifically requested against, I will buck the crowd.

If you have been reloading for Lo!, These many years, you know what to watch regarding safety signals.

If that were my powder, I would start about 35 grains and shoot it over a chrono. Go up or down from there.

What you will find on the forum, is a great many well intentioned people. Most of the reloaders are just that - follow the recipe reloaders.

There are a few handloaders here - the type that are willing to extrapolate, interpolate, and experiment within self-defined safety parameters.
I am one such person, and have learned that there will be backlash from some, no matter what you do.
Handloaders have been using pulled and surplus powders for decades. I myself have developed good loads from pulled 1950s Soviet-block powders.

Perfectly safe loads can be developed from an unknown powder - but the techniques are opaque to most here.

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That is a good reply.

If I put on my Safety Monitor hat, I would say if it appears to be a mix, dump it. That is the absolute safest route. And it is safest because we don't know how the two different brands of 4895 will react. And, none of us here have a pressure gage or the means to measure the pressure curve to see if anything irregular is going on. We do know that powder companies blend powder lots to achieve a desired pressure curve, but they also know what is in those powder lots.

Now, I think even though these are two different brands, made by two different companies, the risk of irregularities in the pressure curve leading to a catastrophic event is very low. These powders are of comparable burn rate. Color is not a controlled characteristic, but of my powders, the IMR 4895 is black and the H4895 is green. Do you see differences in color ?



I have shot thousands of rounds of 308 Win with a 168 Match and 39.0 grains IMR 4895. That load should be just at 40,000 psia and that is where I would start with pulled IMR 4895 and I would chronograph the load. I have shot kegs of pulled military surplus IMR 4895 and I am certain the puller never knew what powder lot was in what cartridges. You just go out, start low, shoot some groups, and measure the velocities, and see what is going on.

First off welcome to the forum.

I'm with the others here it's not safe reload mixed powders of unknown origin. Though the 2 powders you mention look similar so do many others. I have pulled down factory ftf's from several manufacturers and reused powder with a new primers, it is not the same with reloads.

It's not worth the risk.

I wouldn't take the chance. I never trust another persons reloads. Too many unknowns. Sometimes I don't even trust my own. If I forget to write in the log or mark something, then I pull, dump, and do it again. The only time I have reused powder was when a friend shot competition for the Air Force. He would give me ammo. I would pull bullets, dump powder, and give him the empty primed brass. I averaged the powder, it was oh so close load to load, reduced by 10% and then loaded them back up using processed brass (he gave me his empties after competition as well). I dump extra or unknown powder on the lawn.

303 British said:

VERY compressed charge

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Burn rate may change when crushed. More so with stick powders.http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/McCord_gunpowder/

Shape and size have a profound effect on the burning rate and power generation of a powder

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I would probably use it for fertilizer in the flower bed or lawn. Like said we don't know how the 2 will react with each other. Now if he had marked which mfg was used, the best thing would to keep them separated.

There is NO way to visually tell what kind of powder you have. If you insist on using it, have your insurance paid up. Notice I didn't tell you to dump it, but that is what I would do.

I'm one of those willing to bend the rules a bit but usually keep it quiet. I do have bent rules though.

If I was sure (read I loaded the powder) of the powder and was 100% sure what it was I might use it even if it were a mixture of both 4895 powders. Your problem is you have no way of knowing for sure.

In this case I would not chance getting hurt for $60 worth of reclaimed powder, you are worth more than that.

An PLEASE no "just burn it and buy more", I would really like an answer to this!

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I'm fascinated by posts where the OP obviously knows the right answer to their question but asks the Forum up-front to ignore the most obvious choice.

The question you wrote is actually "give me a reason, even if it's not a good one, to risk my firearms, eyesight, and potentially life so I don't have to waste this powder."

Seen in that light, any answer which promotes using it is a bad one. But, as an alternative to a bunch of answers you don't like, why not call the manufacturer? I'm pretty sure Hodgdon would answer and would tell you not to use it. Right after they got done shaking their head.

berettaprofessor said:

Seen in that light, any answer which promotes using it is a bad one.

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Your argument supports, equally well and without any editing required, a case against handloading at all.

The only difference is the level of care, understanding mechanics, and level of analysis required. This sort of beyond-the-book experimentation has a long and illustrious history in firearms and ammo; .44Rem Mag, .357Mag, Ruger-Only .45 Colt, and all the Ackley-ized cartridges started in the same place.

If you don't want to, don't, but don't act scandalized or horrified when the experimenters discuss experiments.

2Lbs of MIXED powder. Hmmm, thats about 60.00 bucks average for what it would cost you to replace it with either 2lbs of H4895 or IMR4895. How much is your rifle worth? How much is your face worth? I like my rifle and my wife likes my face. Your decision but I think you got the answer. Don't use it.

Your argument supports, equally well and without any editing required, a case against handloading at all.

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Not at all. Handloaders, for those of us that aren’t “experimenters,” utilize tried and verified recipes with minimum and maximum loads already worked out. The OP has no such guidelines to start by. If you’re going to support your position of dangerous advice, at least don’t stretch the facts to fit your premise.

I appreciate the efforts of all the wildcatters and powder manufacturers to make this hobby as safe as possible for me. I’m just not ready to tell someone, whose expertise I can’t ascertain from a post, that it’s okay to try a little mix, not knowing what the results are likely to be. That’s not worth $60

not worth it, imo.

murf

I/ll use cases-bullets from pulled ammo, but the powder has to go and not thru a gun barrel. there is a lot of things to do in life, for me using powder from pulled ammo ain,t one of them.

If I were completely out of caliber-appropriate propellant and in a desperate situation where I had to produce some of that specific ammo, I would spend the effort on that mixture.

Otherwise, it would be fertilizer.

We are only talking about 2 pounds here.

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BTW, I understand the attraction of working with that mixture to resolve the issue and reuse that powder (I feel the pull of that) ... but, for me, that would be time completely wasted.

The very thought of that does bring to mind my early high school days of reloading when I was having to scrounge for every single 7,92x57 boxer case (maternal grandfather gave me a K98k BringBack). I wouldn't pass a possible-candidate case on the ground without checking the headstamp.

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OOPS! ALMOST FORGOT!

Welcome to THR, 303 British!

Welcome to thr! So every one has covered the safety side of things and the recommendations on how to proceed if you do choose to use are covered thoroughly as well. I'm not afraid to test limits or experiment a little bit on the wilder side, but in this particular case I'm not sure it's worth it from a different standpoint...... it was touched on previously to a point:
Let's say you find a good safe load with this blend. What happens when you run out? Do you know if the blend is 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? And is it blended equally in each case or will you have 50/50 for 5 cases and 70/30 for 5 and so on? If you find a gorgeous load how would you replicate it later? This would be a no go for me simply because of the large waste of my time, that's about 500(give or take) rounds I could load repeatable results and not waste barrel life on. Just skip the hassle my friend but if you do proceed be safe and hopefully you don't find a 1holer that can't be replicated!

303 Brit, Welcome to THR!

I just bought these two 1 lb cans of IMR 4895 and H 4895. If I mixed them together I'd have what you have, but would that be the smartest reloading thing to do? They are close in burn rates, but mixed is a watch out situation. We all want to be spendthrifts, that is one reason we reload. Cutting corners might not get you in trouble the first time or many times around, but things can go awry in a hurry. If anything set the two pounds of mystery mix 4895 aside and think about it for a week or two. Maybe mark on the container "Use only if The End is near." (Who knows maybe by late next spring, you are using it to fertilize some plants).

Order up either the H or IMR or both 4895 powders and find a combination your rifle likes. May save a heap of grouping frustrations.