Black rifles prior to 1994

That's what I'd like to know, how many of us here owned an AR, or AK or their variants prior to '94, and I mean prior to knowing the ban was coming.

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Before ‘94 I owned a couple AK’s, an FAL, a BM-59 and a Daewoo DR-200. I got deals and prioritized.

I would’ve owned a lot more too, but I was young and poor.

I grew up in a family where my father owned military rifles though. That’s probably the difference.

They were available and popular prior to 1994, but the price has actually decreased and the popularity increased since 2004. Like every other "good idea fairy gun law", the ban was destined for failure, and of course it had no effect on crime.

AlexanderA said:

I didn't detect a huge wave of sympathy for the Waco and Ruby Ridge people at the time. They were generally seen as fringies and cultists, even by the gun community. (Maybe it depended on what part of the country you were in.)

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These events had a big impact here in the Midwest. The Oklahoma City bombing was inspired by them. Remember the “black booted thugs” description of BATF agents?

Obama did nothing to improve gun owners trust in the FBI and BATF. Remember Operation Fast and Furious for the example?

My first "black rifle" was a Uzi carbine (9mm). Functioned just fine but the accuracy was sub par in my hands. This was back during the Bush I administration. Sold it off. Probably would have been a fairly good investment gun if I wanted to keep it around.

I later got a Ruger Mini 14 as my fun gun. Still have it.

My exposure to AR-15's goes back to the 70's. I considered them pretty darn expensive.

A lot of shooters started with SKS's as they were cheap in the 80's (~$100). Pretty good functioning rifles overall.

The funny thing is that I probably still have ammunition for that Uzi on hand. I don't own a 9mm anything as I have pretty much gone with 40 S&W. I could shoot handguns more consistently than that Uzi.

I've made this argument before that the Clinton AWB is largely responsible for the number of AR15's currently out there. Pretty much every graph I've been able to find on rifle and AR15 sales backs this up. On top of that, consider that Colt's patent's on the AR15 expired in 1977. There was some other options offered at that point, not nothing even close to the choices we've had in the past 15 years. When you look at the available data, it becomes apparent that sales remained flat through the Clintin AWB. After it expired in 04, sales slowly began rising until around the time the Presidential campaign kicked off in 06, when sales started climbing faster. Obama's election created a huge spike, and then talk of another AWB after Sandy Hook fully saturated the market.

Remember that this is the time when the more "household" gun brands started entering the market too because they saw the huge potential for sales. S&W brought out the M&P in 06, and the truly affordable Sport in 2011. Ruger, Mossberg and Savage followed not long after. They had 30 years prior they could have built AR15's, and chose not to because it just wasn't that popular of a rifle.

In my case, I had absolutely no interest in an AR until the Obama years. I considered them expensive at that time. That reflects the graphs in terms of sales.

People want what they "can't have". I agree that the interest in and sales of AR-15's or their clones really started with the Clinton years. It was a stupid political move as very few murders in the US were committed with AR's or "black rifles" in general.

I always remember the Michael Douglas movie where he played the president and commenting to the effect of "we gotta get those guns." The liberal movie makers were always pushing their agenda.

22-rimfire said:

In my case, I had absolutely no interest in an AR until the Obama years. I considered them expensive at that time. That reflects the graphs in terms of sales.

People want what they "can't have". I agree that the interest in and sales of AR-15's or their clones really started with the Clinton years. It was a stupid political move as very few murders in the US were committed with AR's or "black rifles" in general.

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I was the same way, never had an interest in AR's, or AK's for the matter. I remember in my college years running into a few guys that were selling AK's for $250-300 and while I knew they were good prices, it just wasn't a gun that I had ANY interest in owning. I had guns to hunt with and I had .22's to plink with, and a single handgun for home defense, and that was it. I do however still remember the sting of wanting a 25 round magazine for my 10/22 back around 2000 and paying $70 for a Steel Lips and maybe $40 for a Hot Lips.

Something in me changed during the Obama years, I decided that it was my civic duty to own an AR15, a stash of 30 round magazines, and plenty of ammo. Bought a SIG 522 along with several 30 round mags in 2011, then my first AR15 in 2015; one turned into 2, two into 3 and thirty round magazines have been multiplying in my basement like rabbits!

Never had one until 2014, but I was craving a Mini-14 back in the eighties. I knew I'd enjoy it a lot, but the price was always a bit out of reach.

So, if I'd had a little more money, I would have owned a 30-round centerfire autoloader prior to the 1994 ban.

Citizens gravitate towards what the police and military are using, and since that is the purpose of the 2nd, to have citizens similarly equiped with arms, that is probably as it should be.

It is actually a good choice for those without much knowledge of firearms because the requirements for the military and police tend to be a weapon that is easy to maintain by people that are not firearm enthusiasts with minimal gear in the field, durable, and reliable enough to not let one down in a firefight with many rounds being fired. In modern times a weapon capable of being used by small statured and female individuals also lends itself to a firearm used by the military and police being easy for most people in a household to use.

Then the flat top AR has the benefit of being immediately ready for an optic which is fixed low on the reciever and does not deviate from zero, highly modular allowing customization as well as ready replacement of just the portion worn or damaged and not anything beyond, patent expired so everyone can make a version not just a single company, and available in many calbers that are suited to roles the original caliber is not.

All of these things make it the most common rifle in a highly competitive field that gives great value, but which also means it will be the rifle most used for good and bad, with the media emphasizing the bad.

It would have become popular even if the AWB had not made it so because in the 1990s police all adopted them and replaced the pump action shotgun with an AR-15. Police widespread use of the pump action shotgun had made it a main firearm of the public prior.
A law telling them they could not have what the professionals all were choosing to adopt in mass only made it even more desireable.

The huge civilian market though is actually what has allowed it to be improved dramatically and greatly benefited both law enforcement and military users. Old fashioned versions used even by our best military forces are nowhere near the refinement of one of the better manufactured versions today.

taliv said:

you mean the government told you they were a cult... but yes, they didn't actually deserve anything but to be left in peace. ...... .

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Well, they were "cultish." I recall allegations about child abuse, that IIRC went unresolved . I'm not sure that I would regard them as being very wholesome Christians.

But law enforcement doesn't have to use a sledgehammer on an ant. Koresh walked to and from town and could have been arrested then. It was alleged they had full auto machineguns. The ATF lab said they did have them by testing the remains of what they recovered .... but I've heard many stories of semiautos going into the ATF lab and coming out full auto. That the ATF refused any independent tests on the guns only raises suspicions.

A lot of children died because of "Operation Showboat." How one feels about a religious group....who says what about it.... we're all endowed the same rights by our creator.
The children didn't deserve OPERATION SHOWBOAT.
I don't think we'll really ever know the full truth of what happened at Waco.

I still remember hear the AWB on the news. Told my grandpa that it stinks. He said why in the hell does anyone need a rifle that can hold 30 rnds? Funny thing is he had a mini 14 in his closet. I believe it had a 20 rnd mag at the time. He was a blue blooded Dem. Until Obama. Then he started to lean to the right.

A great confluence of ban threats and volume/number of AR producers really drove the price down from the mid 90s on. In 1990 I got back from basic/AIT with about 750 to spend. The cheapest ARs at the time...Olympics....ran mid 600s. For my $$$ I got an M-1 (Blue Sky) and a Mini14 at a gun show and still had about 100 bucks for ammo/mags. The Mini was $340 new. I still have both rifles. Now...I could easily get a cheapie AR for mid 400s and the Mini would be over 700 new! Ya gotta love it all a little....good times.

I can’t really say what was going on before the ban, other than to know my grandpas and uncles all had Garands, M1 Carbines, and a pair of Thompson SMG’s which had been in possession since before the NFA. But I can share my observances “mid-ban.” I started building AR’s in 1998 or 1999 while apprenticing under a bolt rifle and Garand builder. He didn’t like AR’s, favoring the Garand action, and would turn away work until I started under him. That was in the middle of the ban. He worked on Mini’s, I took on AR’s, and we’d split SKS’s and AK’s. Featureless, of course - we called them “compliant.” I had moved and was on my own before the end of the ban in ‘04, and was selling a handful of custom assembled AR’s for coyote hunting, personal defense, and (majority share) 3 gun competition every month, sometimes every week, only by word of mouth. Parts selection was much smaller then, and I often had to buy wholesale or bulk orders to even have access to parts. Flattops were a thing, but nowhere near as popular as they are now. Naturally, at the end of the ban, there was a huge boom of retrofits to be done - guys were exceptionally confused at the time about compliance with pre-ban, post-ban, and ban-produced AR’s and mags. Guys wouldn’t want to put a non-compliant upper on a ban-produced AR lower, or didn’t want to use more than a 10rnd mag, for fear of crossing lines. Frankly, I’m not sure that was ever a concern, although I will readily admit, it was good for my bottom line. “Well, if you’re not comfortable with the confusion, I can always just build a complete, new rifle for $xxx.”

10rnd mags, pinned stocks and A2’s, no bayonet lugs, non-threaded barrels. They honestly didn’t look so different than most of the hunting AR’s guys were asking me to build at the time anyway. Today, outside of a purposeful cloner, selling an A2 stocked rifle feels totally out of place.

hso said:

That's an opinion piece, not an article. It makes no attempt at objectivity

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Er, not sure the Gray Lady has actually reported "new" without opinion since the Moon Landings (and I'm not reading the archives to see, either.)

I also think there's another factor. For years Americas young men have returned from war and purchased the firearms they learned to shoot on for sporting and defense purposes. In many cases they were cheap on the surplus market and effective rifles. Wether it was the 1903 Springfield, M1 Garand or M1 Carbine, they were heroes who returned home mostly to rural families with a sporting-firearms heritage.

With the Korean War and certainly with Vietnam that wasn't the case. First the population was much more urbanized without as much sporting firearms heritage, and in the case of Vietnam the mediocre functioning M-16's they learned to shoot on weren't firearms they aspired to own when they got home. For me personally I purchased a post ban during the ban, a Bushmaster A2, I decided to buy one when I saw the Korean shopkeepers defending their stores during the LA riots. But as someone who worked in the firearms business in Wholesale, retail and in Police Supply I saw a real rise in interest in AR's after Gulf war one, and it peaked after 9/11. The GI's coming back from those conflicts had an affinity with the M4's they learned to shoot on and purchased the civilian versions stateside. I suspect that factors in as much as the ban, the reality is the AR platform was late bloomer and needed refinement before it became a staple like the Firearms of World War 1 and 2.

My opinion it is not so much 9/11 or the war on terror that made the popularity of the AR take off in the mid 2000's. It is the fact that by then the rifle had been proven to be reliable and with the addition of the flat top and carry handle that could be easily taken off and usage of the ACOG and dot sights became popular , and the rifle being accurate and cheap to shoot made it the most popular rifle now.

Of course this is in part because the ban sunset that lowered prices again.

The AR might have been popular before to a extent but now it dominates lanes at gun ranges where they are allowed.

Besides family/friends and the military I’d guess video games, movies and the evening news and documentaries have something to do with it.

What led to the rise of the 6 inch S&W 29 .44 Mag? Dirty Harry.

What led to the popularity of the Beretta 92FS and the Glock? Die Hard John McClain and his jacked up feet.

Or playing Black Ops.

Or watching the Marines and Army fight house to house in Fallujah on the news.

People want to own the guns that their favorite characters in movies and video games play. Or that they’ve seen on the news. It sounds kind of stupid, but working at the gun store I’d hear such references over and over again in an average work day.

Over and over again they’ve seen M4’s and M16’s on TV. AR’s are the closest most of them will get.

Not as noble as protecting one’s family or nation, but it factors into more than one gun purchase.

I think the charts posted in post 31 help to explain the rise of the AR.Part of which was the AWB. But the growth of sales in the U.S. began most after the ban was in place and real growth came in this century and after the ban was lifted. The real explosive growth came after the ban and coincided with a few other developments. I'll list these other factors in no particular order:

1. The first Gulf War. The gun was seen often in the arms of U.S. troops.
2. 9-11, Afghanistan and Iraq. Television and video showed us the rifle and the M4 in action.
3. The increased use of the AR by law enforcement in the U.S. made it more familiar to folks here and more people curious about it here.
4. The growing number of vets familiar with the weapon.
5. The internet made gun forums, you tube how to vids, and on line "gun gurus" more available.
6. Video games, movies and TV. For over 20 years now (kids to teens to adults) have seen it as an available "go to" weapon and popular.
7. The constant propaganda against the AR and AK spurred both panic buying and sincere increased interest in the guns along with a desire to get them before they were banned.
8. Political reaction to the attempts to ban them.
9. Growth of aftermarket parts and custom shops made the gun easily adaptable.

In the U.S. it's the use of a weapon by law enforcement and the military that stamps that gun, handgun or long gun, as a viable weapon. Telling folks that only we can have this weapon and you can't falls flat to millions.



Compare the charts in post 31 to the chart below:

This may be helpful as well.

https://gunsandamerica.org/story/19...-ar-15-americas-gun-you-can-make-it-your-own/

Dr.Rob said:

The 1988 shooters bible has a full section of "paramilitary firearms" strangely, olympic, bushmaster and armalite are not in the book -- though I am fairly certain they were in existence. Msrp on a Colt A2 was $729 and a Barret 82A1 went for $6895. There was clearly an interest in these kinds of rifles, it was also in this time frame that imports of Chinese rifles were stopped, and no Norinco or China sports rifles were listed.

The 1994 edition (printed in late 93) shows Colt rifles with no bayonet lugs at $969 and imports like HK with thumb hole stocks. Eagle branded AR's had all the features for $800 and the steyr AUG was listed for $1375.

A lot of us who had never owned such a rifle bought one because the ban was looming, even though prices had gone up.

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I bought one of those Eagle Arms rifles in about 1993 for $500 bucks and still have it. It is a great rifle and still shoots like a dream. At the time I was mostly shooting Mini-14's and had little interest in AR's. However not knowing if I would be able to buy one in the future definitely pushed my into buying one.