Modern Double Action Top Breaks
- Thread starter Mr. Mosin
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jar
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So buy what is available. There are lots of great top break guns still out there.
Whiterook808
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OP
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Mr. Mosin
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Thanks all.
mcb
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I would love to see a modern reproduction of a Webley Mark VI. The used market on those is getting stupid expensive. Even shot-loose 45 ACP conversions are going for over $600 on the auction sites With modern materials a good Webley reporduction in 45 ACP that could take a steady diet of 45 ACP +P maybe even 45 Super is well withing reach without going to super exotic materials.
beag_nut
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That Anderson-Wheeler offering looks like a sweetie, in .357 Mag. Doubt that I would ever come across one over here (they are made in the U.K.), or that I would be able to afford one. Still, it's one of the "idols" I have long awaited for.
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Mr. Mosin
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That Anderson just took the Korth's spot on my long list. Any idea of the price ?
mcb
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Five figures IIRC
bannockburn
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Wow that Anderson-Wheeler Mk.VII revolver is like the Ne Plus Ultra of top break revolvers!
Tallball
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The S&W reproductions by the Italian company or companies are not modern, but they are brand-new, durable, and reliable.
I believe that there are also Indian models based on the British ones that are new or not very old, but they may not be readily available in the US.
I think that NAA made a very small 22 version.
I believe that there are also Indian models based on the British ones that are new or not very old, but they may not be readily available in the US.
I think that NAA made a very small 22 version.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
Top break revolvers are my number 1 favorite type of gun. I must have over a dozen at this point. The newest came off the line at Enfield in 1943 if my research is correct. At that time, the British had just about reached the pinnacle of what you can do with a hinged frame revolver with the materials available. (originally this gun would have been parkerized and would have had a 5" barrel.)
The problem was (and is) a hinged frame tries to pry itself open every time it's fired. If you try to use a cartridge over about 20kpsi or you use mostly jacketed bullets it becomes necessary to make the gun much stronger. Before long you have a gun that is incredibly bulky in relation to the power level of the cartridge it fires.
So in 2019 the materials have come a long way, and apparently you can get a top break design in exactly the same footprint as the Webley Mk.VI to withstand 9x19/.357mag level of pressure, at least. For some amount of time. As long as the special sauce holds out? Hopefully enough to justify the price tag.
The problem was (and is) a hinged frame tries to pry itself open every time it's fired. If you try to use a cartridge over about 20kpsi or you use mostly jacketed bullets it becomes necessary to make the gun much stronger. Before long you have a gun that is incredibly bulky in relation to the power level of the cartridge it fires.
So in 2019 the materials have come a long way, and apparently you can get a top break design in exactly the same footprint as the Webley Mk.VI to withstand 9x19/.357mag level of pressure, at least. For some amount of time. As long as the special sauce holds out? Hopefully enough to justify the price tag.
mcb
Member
I don't think anyone is making reproductions of double action S&W top brakes only the single action versions.
Top break revolvers are my number 1 favorite type of gun. I must have over a dozen at this point. The newest came off the line at Enfield in 1943 if my research is correct. At that time, the British had just about reached the pinnacle of what you can do with a hinged frame revolver with the materials available. (originally this gun would have been parkerized and would have had a 5" barrel.)
The problem was (and is) a hinged frame tries to pry itself open every time it's fired. If you try to use a cartridge over about 20kpsi or you use mostly jacketed bullets it becomes necessary to make the gun much stronger. Before long you have a gun that is incredibly bulky in relation to the power level of the cartridge it fires.
So in 2019 the materials have come a long way, and apparently you can get a top break design in exactly the same footprint as the Webley Mk.VI to withstand 9x19/.357mag level of pressure, at least. For some amount of time. As long as the special sauce holds out? Hopefully enough to justify the price tag.
Nice repair job on the cylinder of that Mark VI. Some of the steels that are in fairly common use today are significantly more durable than what was available back when the Mark VI was designed. I don't think we will be making a 454 Casull top break but 45 ACP +P is well within modern steel's capabilities. And if money is no object making a Webley out of Aermet or similar Maraging Steels would probably make even higher pressures doable though material and machining costs are going to increase significantly.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
I wish I could say that it was "repaired" back to proper length, however that's just a spacer that sits between the cylinder face and the rims of the cartridge to allow use of .455MkII ammo. It comes up with the ejector when the gun is opened.
I will be taking the easier route to a combat ready Mk.VI and making up some appropriate loads in .45AR as soon as I find a bullet I like.
Tallball
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"I don't think anyone is making reproductions of double action S&W top brakes only the single action versions."
My fault for not reading carefully enough. I know that there were some top-break S&W revolvers made back in the day, but as you said, I don't know of anyone making them now.
The NAA is/was SA too, IIRC.
My fault for not reading carefully enough. I know that there were some top-break S&W revolvers made back in the day, but as you said, I don't know of anyone making them now.
The NAA is/was SA too, IIRC.
jar
Contributing Member
S&W DA Model 4 in a Galco holster:
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
That is correct. The only replicas of the S&W Top Break revolvers being made today are single actions, like the Schofield, Russian, New Model Number Three, and most recently the American model.
I am pretty sure nobody ever made replicas of the S&W double action Top Breaks, of which there were plenty.
Here is a pair of 44 Double Actions. The top one is a target model, the bottom one is a standard model. This model was available chambered for 44 Russian, 44-40, and 38-40. The most common was 44 Russian, which is the chambereing for this pair. The 38-40s were quite rare, only 276 were ever made.
The five shot 38 Double Actions were styled very similar to the 44s, except they were five shooters instead of six shooters. Chambering was 38S&W. (Not 38 Special). This one is a 38 Double Action, 3rd Model.
The 32 Double Actions had the same styling, but they were smaller still. At the top of the photo is a 38 Double Action, 4th Model. At the bottom is a 32 Double Action, 4th Model, chambered for 32 S&W. (Not 32 S&W Long).
The Safety Hammerless models were double action only. Sometimes known as lemon squeezers because of the grip safety. This is a 38 Safety Hammerless 2nd Model, chambered for 38 S&W.
This is a 32 Safety Hammerless, chambered for 32 S&W.
The Bicycle Guns were Safety Hammerless revolvers with 2" barrels. Perfect for protecting Daisy against ruffians that might be encountered while on a bicycle built for two. As can be seen on the barrel, this one is chambered for 32S&W. There are lots of fakes of these out there, the real ones had the caliber marking centered on the barrel like this.
The last Top Break revolvers that S&W made were the Perfecteds. Made from 1909 until 1920. Five shot 38S&W, double action or single action. These were the only top Breaks S&W made with the trigger guard integral with the frame. Tricky because you have to remember to lift the latch at the top at the same time as you push the thumb piece forward to open them for loading. I always have to remember every time I pick one up.
Monac
Member
I like top break revolvers too, but there have been a number of threads about them in which someone explained that they are very expensive to make now. It has something to do with hand-fitting of the frame and latch, IIRC.
The only top break revolvers made now that I can think of are the Schofield replicas, which are single-action. Even though they have been on the market for quite a while (10 years? 20 years? I can't remember when they first hit the market) they are still quite expensive. I keep thinking of getting one in 38 Special, but $900+ is just too much for me. And they are usually more like $1,200.
PS - Thanks to Driftwood Johnson for his excellent post and photos. I do not want to take them for granted. BTW, one of the nice things about the Perfected Model is that it has the same grip shape as the 32 Hand Ejector, which is the same at the J-frame grip S&W still makes today. So you have a vast choice of good grips if you want to shoot it.
The only top break revolvers made now that I can think of are the Schofield replicas, which are single-action. Even though they have been on the market for quite a while (10 years? 20 years? I can't remember when they first hit the market) they are still quite expensive. I keep thinking of getting one in 38 Special, but $900+ is just too much for me. And they are usually more like $1,200.
PS - Thanks to Driftwood Johnson for his excellent post and photos. I do not want to take them for granted. BTW, one of the nice things about the Perfected Model is that it has the same grip shape as the 32 Hand Ejector, which is the same at the J-frame grip S&W still makes today. So you have a vast choice of good grips if you want to shoot it.
Jim Watson
Member
While the Perfected was the latest Smith top break introduced, the Safety Hammerless stayed in production longer, clear up til 1940. I figure they finally dropped it to work on the huge BSR orders.
There were some Perfecteds made without the side catch. $$$$
I like the looks of the 1891 .38 SA. I'd like to see it as a .32 sixshooter; my spur trigger .38 on that frame was kind of a kicker. Or a .22, but that is an eccentricity of mine.
You might say the H&R Ultra Sportsman 777 was the most modern top break, if you like .22s.
There were some Perfecteds made without the side catch. $$$$
I like the looks of the 1891 .38 SA. I'd like to see it as a .32 sixshooter; my spur trigger .38 on that frame was kind of a kicker. Or a .22, but that is an eccentricity of mine.
You might say the H&R Ultra Sportsman 777 was the most modern top break, if you like .22s.
Monac
Member
I think (and Driftwood Johnson would be a better source on this) that S&W stopped making the Safety Hammerless revolvers well before 1940. They just had enough on hand, or enough parts to assemble into guns, to keep them in the catalog until 1940.
I have heard of the no-side-catch Perfected Models, but I have never seen a photograph of one. Does anyone know of one?
Jim Watson
Member
I wouldn't doubt it, that is what kept the No 3 in the catalog until 1912 or so.
silvermane_1
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Whiterook, where is the price listed for that Anderson Wheeler MKVII?
mcb
Member
"The Anderson Wheeler Mark VII is the first revolver to be made in the United Kingdom ever since the year 1983, and will be tentatively made available at a starting price of £6,500.00 (€8,245.00, or US$9313,90), excluding VAT."
https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/pistols/anderson-wheeler-mk7-357-magnum-revolver-replica/
This article has a tentive price based on conversation with Anderson Wheeler at the 2016 Shot Show where this new revolver was first reveled.
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