Ca ammo law and reloading...

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Spats McGee said:
If I were going to reload in CA: CA law seems fairly particular (and even a little peculiar) in regards to reloading. Still, it certainly looks manageable from a legal perspective.
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It's more than manageable. It is (for now) uncharted territory in terms of legislation. Section 16150 is unambiguous; ammunition means a completed round. The wonkiness of the language, particularly the attempt to distinguish "reloaded ammunition" from just plain ammunition, seems to be an attempt to be all-inclusive since there's no actual distinction between either as a functioning round. It may seem redundant, but then so is specifying blanks as non-ammunition too (would otherwise be a pain for anyone who needs to feed a Ramset).

The bottom line is the state wants their money. The original incarnation in the ballot initiative mandated a BFSC/HSC/FSC-type license to buy ammunition. Now the state just wants a per transaction version of the same thing. This is about collecting that fee in some way or another.

As for reloading as an option to workaround the requirements, I wouldn't suggest someone solely get into it just for that reason. It's (imo) supposed to be a fun standalone hobby, not a chore.
 
Texasgrillchef said:
Also if a CA resident reloads out of state, LEO’s would be hard pressed to know if it was purchased or reloaded.
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It wouldn't matter since either would be illegal to import without going through a dealer.
Theoretically, primed cases with only a seated bullet and no powder charge are exempt (read: 16150 “ammunition” means one or more loaded cartridges consisting of a primed case, propellant, and with one or more projectiles) so if someone was really inclined, they could import rounds which by all appearance would look like completed ammunition but not meet that legal definition. For obvious reasons, that would be stupid but completely doable nonetheless.
 
Basura Blanca said:
It's more than manageable. It is (for now) uncharted territory in terms of legislation. Section 16150 is unambiguous; ammunition means a completed round. The wonkiness of the language, particularly the attempt to distinguish "reloaded ammunition" from just plain ammunition, seems to be an attempt to be all-inclusive since there's no actual distinction between either as a functioning round. It may seem redundant, but then so is specifying blanks as non-ammunition too (would otherwise be a pain for anyone who needs to feed a Ramset).

The bottom line is the state wants their money. The original incarnation in the ballot initiative mandated a BFSC/HSC/FSC-type license to buy ammunition. Now the state just wants a per transaction version of the same thing. This is about collecting that fee in some way or another.

As for reloading as an option to workaround the requirements, I wouldn't suggest someone solely get into it just for that reason. It's (imo) supposed to be a fun standalone hobby, not a chore.
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Your probably absolutely right on them being more interested in collecting the fees. So they dont worry to much about the loopholes figuring that they will still generate the expected revenue and reduce the amount of ammo being purchased.

As i understand it, CA is the most taxed/fee based state in the country. Probably why CA and New York have the highest cost of living in the entire country!
 
The thread does say CA Ammo law so I hope this isn't too much a drift.

At IRC a number of out of country competitors came up short of ammo. Flying from Australia they are limited to 400+/- rounds in the luggage (based on weight actually, but works out to about that many 9mm). The match required a minimum of 375 rounds. In PA it wasn't a problem, they went to the local Cabela's and bought the extra they needed.

But what does an out of country competitor do in CA? Can they buy an extra 100+ rounds? Or does being from out of country prohibit that?
 
alfsauve said:
The thread does say CA Ammo law so I hope this isn't too much a drift.

At IRC a number of out of country competitors came up short of ammo. Flying from Australia they are limited to 400+/- rounds in the luggage (based on weight actually, but works out to about that many 9mm). The match required a minimum of 375 rounds. In PA it wasn't a problem, they went to the local Cabela's and bought the extra they needed.

But what does an out of country competitor do in CA? Can they buy an extra 100+ rounds? Or does being from out of country prohibit that?
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Well the way I understand it, since they aren’t a resident. If they go to another state first, buy ammo there and then bring it in. As the law only bans residents from importing ammo. They could probably get some ammo fedexed to them as they aren’t residents as well.

Since you said the limit was based on weight in the luggage. One could simply just pay the extra weight baggage fee as well and bring more ammo. As I understand it, up to 5000 rounds can be imported for the use of hunting and target shooting.
I know someone from Melbourne that came to a Texas Ranch and brought almost 1000 rounds, he went target shooting too.

I’m sure the competitions in CA have figured out work arounds for their competitors too. I also think there was something said in the law about target ranges selling without a background check, as long as all the ammo was either used, or was kept and stored on the premises of the target range too.

Which makes me wonder how the target ranges are going to keep tabs of how much of the ammo one shoots, and doesn’t secretly sneak out extra.
 
Texasgrillchef said:
I’m sure the competitions in CA have figured out work arounds for their competitors too.
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Yes, we have

I also think there was something said in the law about target ranges selling without a background check, as long as all the ammo was either used, or was kept and stored on the premises of the target range too.
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There is indeed that provision in the law
 
I recently asked a California county assistant district attorney who shoots regularly out-of-state how he was going to comply with the sticky importation issues in California's new ammo laws.

His response was that from his perspective, the issue is always one of proving the violation. He indicated that he keeps receipts for ammo that he buys legally in California. When he takes this ammo to an out-of-state shoot, he takes the receipt for it with him. When he returns to California, he has proof that the leftover ammo he has with him was legally obtained in California.

He also mentioned that if someone did this and happened to replenish his supply while out of state, he thought that any California LEO or prosecutor would be hard-pressed to generate probable cause for or to prove a violation of the law. Of course, he, personally, would never do, nor advise another to do such a thing...nor would I.

Sounds like something that a lawyer would say, though, doesn't it!

A similar approach might be used for reloaded ammo, prepared in California, taken out of state, and then brought back in by a California resident. Or, per the OPs original posting, just carried around in a vehicle in the state. I suppose that you'd just need receipts for bullets, primers, powder, etc.
 
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luzyfuerza said:
I recently asked a California county assistant district attorney who shoots regularly out-of-state how he was going to comply with the sticky importation issues in California's new ammo laws.

His response was that from his perspective, the issue is always one of proving the violation. He indicated that he keeps receipts for ammo that he buys legally in California. When he takes this ammo to an out-of-state shoot, he takes the receipt for it with him. When he returns to California, he has proof that the leftover ammo he has with him was legally obtained in California.

He also mentioned that if someone did this and happened to replenish his supply while out of state, he thought that any California LEO or prosecutor would be hard-pressed to generate probable cause for or to prove a violation of the law. Of course, he, personally, would never do, nor advise another to do such a thing...nor would I.

Sounds like something that a lawyer would say, though, doesn't it!

A similar approach might be used for reloaded ammo, prepared in California, taken out of state, and then brought back in by a California resident. Or, per the OPs original posting, just carried around in a vehicle in the state. I suppose that you'd just need receipts for bullets, primers, powder, etc.
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Truly, not being combative towards your post, but I shouldn't have to prove my innocence. It's getting to be like "Where are your papers/receipts, you most prove your innocence to mother California. Can't wait to get out of this hole.
 
CharliesHammer said:
Truly, not being combative towards your post, but I shouldn't have to prove my innocence. It's getting to be like "Where are your papers/receipts, you most prove your innocence to mother California. Can't wait to get out of this hole.
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I'm with you. One of the happiest days of my life was seeing California in my rear-view mirror, knowing that I would never have to live there again.

However, our legal system is based on a formal, moderated form of mutual combat. Both sides go at it with the arguments and evidence that best support their position, and the most persuasive arguments and evidence win. Sometimes in this system, we do have to refute the state's assertions. Or assumptions. And occasionally, its a good idea to be prepared to present some of this evidence on the side of the road.
 
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luzyfuerza said:
I'm with you. One of the happiest days of my life was seeing California in my rear-view mirror, knowing that I would never have to live there again.

However, our legal system is based on a formal, moderated form of mutual combat. Both sides go at it with the arguments and evidence that best support their position, and the best arguments and evidence win. Sometimes in this system, we do have to refute the state's assertions. Or assumptions. And occasionally, its a good idea to be prepared to present some of this evidence on the side of the road.
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Glad you got out brother! I'm hopefully not far behind. I got my parents out six years ago and am really only here for work. I'm the furthest thing from an attorney, I also understand that constitutionally they have to prove guilt. I will defend myself with competent counsel. However if the law followed the constitution I would not have to prove my innocence. Needless to say I travel between states with ammo in unmarked ammo cans loose. I also mostly shoot my own reloads. The laws coming from Ca make me wanna :barf:.
 
luzyfuerza said:
I recently asked a California county assistant district attorney who shoots regularly out-of-state how he was going to comply with the sticky importation issues in California's new ammo laws.

His response was that from his perspective, the issue is always one of proving the violation. He indicated that he keeps receipts for ammo that he buys legally in California. When he takes this ammo to an out-of-state shoot, he takes the receipt for it with him. When he returns to California, he has proof that the leftover ammo he has with him was legally obtained in California.

He also mentioned that if someone did this and happened to replenish his supply while out of state, he thought that any California LEO or prosecutor would be hard-pressed to generate probable cause for or to prove a violation of the law. Of course, he, personally, would never do, nor advise another to do such a thing...nor would I.

Sounds like something that a lawyer would say, though, doesn't it!

A similar approach might be used for reloaded ammo, prepared in California, taken out of state, and then brought back in by a California resident. Or, per the OPs original posting, just carried around in a vehicle in the state. I suppose that you'd just need receipts for bullets, primers, powder, etc.
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This just proves the stupidity of the law
 
luzyfuerza said:
I recently asked a California county assistant district attorney who shoots regularly out-of-state how he was going to comply with the sticky importation issues in California's new ammo laws.

His response was that from his perspective, the issue is always one of proving the violation. He indicated that he keeps receipts for ammo that he buys legally in California. When he takes this ammo to an out-of-state shoot, he takes the receipt for it with him. When he returns to California, he has proof that the leftover ammo he has with him was legally obtained in California.

He also mentioned that if someone did this and happened to replenish his supply while out of state, he thought that any California LEO or prosecutor would be hard-pressed to generate probable cause for or to prove a violation of the law. Of course, he, personally, would never do, nor advise another to do such a thing...nor would I.

Sounds like something that a lawyer would say, though, doesn't it!

A similar approach might be used for reloaded ammo, prepared in California, taken out of state, and then brought back in by a California resident. Or, per the OPs original posting, just carried around in a vehicle in the state. I suppose that you'd just need receipts for bullets, primers, powder, etc.
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That would be fine but....does he have any knowledge of a provision in the law that distinguishes ammo that originated in state as being allowed to leave and brought back?
 
Like so many other laws, I suspect that the level of compliance will be very low.

I also suspect that LEO's in general, and in the major metro areas particularly, have more than enough demands on their time and resources, so these restrictions will likely be a very low priority (if not a wink and a nod).

Always amazing how some folks seem to think that passing another law will solve any perceived problem. Everything in law enforcement relies upon voluntary compliance (sure, enforced compliance comes into play, but that usually only happens when someone is coloring way outside the lines).
 
danez71 said:
That would be fine but....does he have any knowledge of a provision in the law that distinguishes ammo that originated in state as being allowed to leave and brought back?
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In 49 states, the law doesn't describe what is allowed. Only that which is prohibited. In this case, a CA resident shall not import ammo purchased outside of the state...

And LEOs and DAs have the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this occurred. The receipt is a way of creating, at least, reasonable doubt.
 
FWIW the latest in CA is a Bill which bans lead ammo from all shooting ranges(lead is already banned for all hunting)
That takes care of bullet casters, formal target shooters, plinkers, most black powder folks and bulk cast bullet hand loaders, even pellet guns.
Note this is for all lead ammo, even fully jacketed lead ammo..
And with the Democratic anti 2-A super majority in Sacramento, there is every expectation it will pass.
 
John Joseph said:
FWIW the latest in CA is a Bill which bans lead ammo from all shooting ranges(lead is already banned for all hunting)
That takes care of bullet casters, formal target shooters, plinkers, most black powder folks and bulk cast bullet hand loaders, even pellet guns.
Note this is for all lead ammo, even fully jacketed lead ammo..
And with the Democratic anti 2-A super majority in Sacramento, there is every expectation it will pass.
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That Bill AB 3071 was withdrawn last month
 
luzyfuerza said:
In 49 states, the law doesn't describe what is allowed. Only that which is prohibited. In this case, a CA resident shall not import ammo purchased outside of the state...

And LEOs and DAs have the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this occurred. The receipt is a way of creating, at least, reasonable doubt.
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pay with cash, don’t keep receipts, own reloading equipment, and you can create reasonable doubt.
 
9mmepiphany said:
Yes, we have


There is indeed that provision in the law
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which makes me wonder, how the shooting ranges are going to keep track of how much ammo i shoot, versus what I brought in, while one might not be able to sneak 1000 rounds out the door. I bet it wouldn’t be to hard to sneak 50-100 rounds out the door, especially if we are talking 9mm.

now trying to sneak out a 100 rounds of 45-70 would be another matter.
 
luzyfuerza said:
I recently asked a California county assistant district attorney who shoots regularly out-of-state how he was going to comply with the sticky importation issues in California's new ammo laws.

His response was that from his perspective, the issue is always one of proving the violation. He indicated that he keeps receipts for ammo that he buys legally in California. When he takes this ammo to an out-of-state shoot, he takes the receipt for it with him. When he returns to California, he has proof that the leftover ammo he has with him was legally obtained in California.

He also mentioned that if someone did this and happened to replenish his supply while out of state, he thought that any California LEO or prosecutor would be hard-pressed to generate probable cause for or to prove a violation of the law. Of course, he, personally, would never do, nor advise another to do such a thing...nor would I.

Sounds like something that a lawyer would say, though, doesn't it!

A similar approach might be used for reloaded ammo, prepared in California, taken out of state, and then brought back in by a California resident. Or, per the OPs original posting, just carried around in a vehicle in the state. I suppose that you'd just need receipts for bullets, primers, powder, etc.
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Or simply own reloading equipment.... that’s enough to show reasonable doubt. At least if I was a jury, and the defense showed he owned reloading equipment I would vote to aqqquit for reasonable doubt.
 
Riomouse911 said:
There are 56 Counties in Ca, and most are rural. The majority of these rural Counties do issue, and issue them without a ton of restrictions. The disgustingly overpopulated urban Counties' sheriff's are the ones that don't, because they're run by self-righteous libs and the local media. The only ones there that seem to get CCW permits are big-money political donors. People don't open carry anymore because that's now illegal, so the places where people do have CCW permits they keep it on the down-low. No need to draw attention. ;)

San Bernardino County also has a powder ledger rule. As far as I can tell it has solved no crime, but it's on the books anyway. I have also bought powder in Riverside and in Fresno Counties, they didn't have a ledger...or at least the seller didn't fill one out. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
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People tend to define California by looking at Los Angeles and San Francisco, but the truth is that most Californians outside of those two counties tend to view those citizens as fruit loops.

So essentially, there are two Californias: the California made up of big coastal counties, and everywhere else.

<Edit> I live in a fairly urbanized coastal county in California, yet we still have what is essentially "shall issue". Our sheriff's department is largely supportive of it, but also is very protective of it. If a CCW holder screws up in any significant way - like a DWI or a 100 mph speeding ticket - he can count on not being renewed, at the least. They really don't want any negative light shone upon the program.
 
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