What to do with a shot out rifle?

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Jgjgjg

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have a rifle I suspect is shot out. It’s an old 8mm-06, seems to shoot fine but when I chrony handloads, I’m finding that 2900fps loads are clocking 2500 and 2600 FPS lids are clocking 2100. Having checked the obvious (scale, etc), I’m now going to get a smith to take a cast and see whose what.

This is an old manlicher Mauser, FN action, heavily engraved, octagonal barrel, old Europe scope mounts—the ones that quickly snap out and in with no change in zero. So I don’t want to do anything to damage the asthetics.

At the same time, I can’t abide a having a tool of any kind that doesn’t function properly. So if the news of “shot out” comes back, what are my options? Can I have the barrel bored and sleeved (and does that really work)? Up-bored to some larger diameter 30-06 based round (338?).

Also, is this work gunsmiths can rationally be expected to execute? Or is the reality that old rifles like this can’t be disassembled without damage?
 
I would think a .338-06 or .35 Whelen would be very straight forward solutions. Disassembly and protection of the engraving should not be an issue for a quality gunsmith. My guess this would be the third life for the gun- round one in 8x57 or 8x60, round two reamed to 8mm-06 for ammo supply issues, round three is your choice.
 
Can I have the barrel bored and sleeved (and does that really work)?

Not recommended for high pressure rounds like .30-06.

Up-bored to some larger diameter 30-06 based round (338?).

Quite feasible. Here are a couple of places. CAVEAT, I have not done business with either, just found their advertisements.
http://www.35caliber.com/index.html
https://cutrifle.com/reboring.html

I don't know if an 8mm will reliably clean up to .338, you might have to go to .35 Whelen.
These old sporters can have very tapered barrels, and may not accommodate a bigger hole.
But the guys who do the work can tell you.
 
have a rifle I suspect is shot out. It’s an old 8mm-06, seems to shoot fine but when I chrony handloads, I’m finding that 2900fps loads are clocking 2500 and 2600 FPS lids are clocking 2100. Having checked the obvious (scale, etc), I’m now going to get a smith to take a cast and see whose what.

This is an old manlicher Mauser, FN action, heavily engraved, octagonal barrel, old Europe scope mounts—the ones that quickly snap out and in with no change in zero. So I don’t want to do anything to damage the asthetics.

At the same time, I can’t abide a having a tool of any kind that doesn’t function properly. So if the news of “shot out” comes back, what are my options? Can I have the barrel bored and sleeved (and does that really work)? Up-bored to some larger diameter 30-06 based round (338?).

Also, is this work gunsmiths can rationally be expected to execute? Or is the reality that old rifles like this can’t be disassembled without damage?

I would find a gunsmith that specializes in working on high-end guns, and discuss it with them. They should be able to suggest calibers also.

Having checked the obvious (scale, etc),

Bore? Grooves, and lands? Pop a borescope down it? Chronograph?

Can I have the barrel bored and sleeved (and does that really work)?

With low-velocity lead bulleted round, it works.

Up-bored to some larger diameter 30-06 based round (338?).

I'd recommend .35 Whelen, and keeping the rounds on the lower pressure end of the spectrum.
 
I would go with the 35 whelen as its a factory round now, I own three whelen rifles and I an happy with them. 225 gr bullet at 2600-2700 fps will kill any thing you may find in the USA.
 
If the gun shoots fine, what is the problem?

Maybe your chrony is the issue and not the gun/barrel/bore.

How do you know the 2900 fps loads are even relevant?

Did you chrony those loads in another gun to determine if in fact that is a real world number or is that just a published number that you are looking at?

If I had that gun and it was "shooting good" I wouldn't do a thing to it.

But, it is your gun.
 
If the gun shoots fine, what is the problem?

Maybe your chrony is the issue and not the gun/barrel/bore.

How do you know the 2900 fps loads are even relevant?

Did you chrony those loads in another gun to determine if in fact that is a real world number or is that just a published number that you are looking at?

If I had that gun and it was "shooting good" I wouldn't do a thing to it.

But, it is your gun.

Actually, it’s a great question. Next time I’m out I’ll chrony some factory .308 to see if the chrony is a likely problem. 8mm-06 is an unusual caliber, so shooting in someone else’s rifle, or finding factory loads, is an unlikely option.
 
When a barrel maker get a barrel back that the customer says is no longer accurate or is shot out, the FIRST thing they do is give it a deep cleaning.
Many say that most of the barrels are perfectly good, just fouled.

I recommend using JB Bore Paste and Kroil to deep clean. Then test fire with good ammo. You might be surprised.
 
Would love to see a picture of the rifle, might help get you the best answer. If it's fancy enough it may be best to spare no expense to make it right, if it's average or a bit better really any qualified smith can do the work.
I wouldn't count on chronograph data alone, if it makes decent groups and isn't fouling the barrel after a few shots i think it should be fine, i have rifles that have been shot a lot but i'm not doing any competition with them or hunting with them for that matter - i doubt you are with this rifle either. everything you see outside of nature was made by the hands of men, ANYTHING can be fixed, it comes down to what it's worth to you (nobody else).
 
have a rifle I suspect is shot out. It’s an old 8mm-06, seems to shoot fine but when I chrony handloads, I’m finding that 2900fps loads are clocking 2500 and 2600 FPS lids are clocking 2100. Having checked the obvious (scale, etc), I’m now going to get a smith to take a cast and see whose what.

This is an old manlicher Mauser, FN action, heavily engraved, octagonal barrel, old Europe scope mounts—the ones that quickly snap out and in with no change in zero. So I don’t want to do anything to damage the asthetics.

At the same time, I can’t abide a having a tool of any kind that doesn’t function properly. So if the news of “shot out” comes back, what are my options? Can I have the barrel bored and sleeved (and does that really work)? Up-bored to some larger diameter 30-06 based round (338?).

Also, is this work gunsmiths can rationally be expected to execute? Or is the reality that old rifles like this can’t be disassembled without damage?

Before anything, have a gunsmith use a borescope to diagnose the problem.

If the throat is damaged which is often the cause of inaccuracy (apart from crown damage or the rifling disappearing), you can have the existing barrel set back one thread to requalify by a gunsmith if that has not already been done and then they use a chamber reamer to finish the new chamber and throat. This often restores accuracy if the problem is an oversized throat.
If the rifling is worn so that the entire bore is oversize, then sometimes firing something like a flat based jacketed bullet can help with accuracy or at worst using cast boolits which can be sized to fit the bore and often can work magic in old worn rifling.

Sleeving is not recommended for high pressure rounds so the other alternative is reboring if setting back the barrel is not an option.
 
My hunter is going to one my children, and this was to be my next hunter so....
 
My hunter is going to one my children, and this was to be my next hunter so....
A decent gunsmith with a lathe can set a barrel back pretty inexpensively without changing the overall look of the rifle. There might be some bedding issues with the stock depending on what style of stock you have. It will lose a small bit of length because they use a lathe to cut the breech face back one thread (usually) and then re-ream a new chamber and throat.

There are also enough 8x57 barrels around that you can have one reamed to the wildcat 8mm-06 but of course you would lose the overall current look of the rifle.

One idle thought that occurs to me, an octagon 8x57 would be an uncommon stock barrel and even today octagon barrels today are more likely found on black powder firearms than later smokeless rifles. One thing that might be an issue is that someone took a blackpowder barrel blank at some point and bored out/reamed what you have. That would account for the relatively sudden loss of velocity as blackpowder barrel blanks are generally of softer steel than those for smokeless thus firing a higher pressure smokeless round would accelerate wear in the rifling. There are a few folks that do liners for old large bore, relatively low pressure, rounds like .35 Rem or .45-70 Government and one guy specifically warns that his liners are only suitable for lower pressure rounds such as cast bullets due to the steel used.

Reboring is an option but there are relatively fewer gunsmiths that would competent to do that job as they would have to re-rifle the barrel after boring it out and the boring must be concentric with the barrel and obviously the rifling would be affected by imperfections in the new bore if any. One of the issues involved in reboring is that there must be enough "meat" on the barrel after reboring to deal with the pressures of the new cartridge. I suspect that something like a .35 Whelen would be the better choice given the vintage of the round, the pressures involved, the magazine of your current rifle, and the relatively ease of getting factory ammo. A newly developed high pressure .338 or .35 caliber magnum would probably not be advisable for the action (Mauser actions are carburized on the outside with a soft center and can suffer lug setback from hot rounds) and too much pressure for a larger bore required.
 
At the same time, I can’t abide a having a tool of any kind that doesn’t function properly. So if the news of “shot out” comes back, what are my options? Can I have the barrel bored and sleeved (and does that really work)? Up-bored to some larger diameter 30-06 based round (338?).

I found a thread on another forum where the poster had an old M70 30-06 barreled to 35 Whelen. On the first or second round of factory ammunition the barrel blew. The poster blamed the barrel maker of course. I blame them both but the responsibility for knowing better lies with the barrel maker because he is the guy who can be sued.

I absolutely do not recommend reboring and re using old centerfire rifle barrels. Barrels are a pressure vessel and when you are talking about 50,000 psia and up pressures, no barrel was ever expected to survive an infinite number of pressure cycles. I have F34 Green Mountain barrels in both 30-06 and 35 Whelen. As I discovered measuring a SAKO Finnbear barrel, the F34 contour is a copy of the SAKO.


uXhG3O4.jpg


The 35 Whelen barrel is three ounces lighter. So, to rebore, you take an old tube, made from old materials, and remove maybe three ounces from it, and expect it to last another 5000 pressure cycles? It might, and it might not. Removing material weakens the barrel, it does not make the barrel stronger. If your recently weakened barrel blows, it will be your hand and face that will be missing. I think there was a recent thread where the poster had a Marlin barrel blow, and he had severe hand injuries.

The shooting community does not seem to understand that the barrel takes more stress than the action because more of the cartridge case is in the barrel. Barrels are absolutely safety critical items, they should not be taken for granted, and when they blow what happens afterward is very unpredictable. The smartest, safest, thing to do, is when a barrel is shot out, is to replace it with a nice, new barrel made of modern steels. The heck with trying to reincarnate vintage metallurgy.

I have run into a couple of posts where the "gunsmith" was warned not to rechamber old M1917 barrels into 300 H&H or 300 WinMag, and the rechambered barrels blew. Prior to WW2, Howe in his book "The Modern Gunsmith" warned against rechambering M1917 barrels to 300 Magnum (300H&H?) because he was aware of rechambered barrels that blew. In my opinion, old centerfire tubes should not be rechambered, but left in their original cartridge, and and not be reused by reboring or sleeving.

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

Hummer

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=134137

Bottom line is cases melt between 110,000 and 115,000 lbs PSI. Before they melt they sustain plastic deformation to differing degrees. The case head on the blown M16 above was gone but the bolt held. The case is the safety valve. It should fail before the barrel fails unless there is something else going on like bore obstruction. Case in point is the pics floating around the internet of the guy that left the boresight in the muzzle of his 300 Win Mag.

Bad barrel steel is the culprit in a number of cases which is caused by poor steel grade or ingredients. The P14 rifle is one such known to have bad steel and they are known to split using standard production 303 ball ammo generally starting from the muzzle. This is published in the Brit ordnance archives and it was orignally classified but has been declassified and I have a copy. All three vendors rifles had same problem on the P14s.

In Hatcher's Notebook he tells of marginal barrel steel in 1903 barrels dring WW1 and still used.

P O Ackley taught at Trinidad back in late 40s, early 50s and he told the gunsmith students to never use a military barrel for a
magnum conversion because of the margine steel which is fine for standard 30.06 but not good enough for magnum pressures.

One of the students couldn't afford a new barrel so he took a 1917 barrel and opened it up for 300 Win Mag. Barrel sustained a catastrophic failure and sheared four fingers on left hand where he was holding the stock.
 
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It would be nice if OP would show pictures.
Some of these Old World sporters have fantastically elaborate barrel profiles. They are not made out of Dan'l Boone's spares. A guy here had one that was variably tapered octagon with integral rib and sight bases.
Having such a contour duplicated would take a large chunk out of the heirs' inheritance.

Maybe the best thing to do is to settle for the lower velocity.
 
Not recommended for high pressure rounds like .30-06.



Quite feasible. Here are a couple of places. CAVEAT, I have not done business with either, just found their advertisements.
http://www.35caliber.com/index.html
https://cutrifle.com/reboring.html

I don't know if an 8mm will reliably clean up to .338, you might have to go to .35 Whelen.
These old sporters can have very tapered barrels, and may not accommodate a bigger hole.
But the guys who do the work can tell you.

This.

Go to 35 Whelen. 35caliber.com is Jesse Occumpagh. I have had several barrels done by him. As I recall, he doesn't do email but he returns calls. He is skillful, offers value for money, is chock full of integrity, and, most important of all, is honest about turnaround times (unlike some). As I recall, he told me 4-5 weeks and in every instance the rifle was returned one to two weeks under that. I would send him that rifle without the slightest qualm. Good luck.
 
Load data in a book is worked up in a test gun. Usually the book will give the test gun, barrel length and twist rate. Say the test barrel was 26 inches, yours is 22. Your not going to make printed velocity. Other variables will be your powder. Even if it's the same brand and number it may not be exactly the same as it was back when 8mm-06 loads were worked up. It may also have degraded from storage or shipping issues. In the brass internal dimensions will vary between different makes of brass. If the load data was made up with surplus Lake City brass back then which tended to have thicker walls, and you're using Remington brass with thinner walls, the increased case capacity of the Remington could be causing lower pressure and lower velocity. The primer can affect muzzle velocity as well. Additionally your bore may be oversized either from when it was made or less likely in this type of gun from wear.
We don't know your history with this rifle, if those loads gave 2900 fps previously and suddenly now they don't. We don't know what brass, powder, primer and bullet you're using. We don't know your bore diameter. Nor do we know what the load data you're using specifies.
It's like calling your mechanic and saying "My car should do 125 mph, but it's only doing 105, do I need a new engine?"
 
Let's look at this from a more common sense approach, this is an older rifle that likely started as an 8x57. The military load was running around 2400 fps. The rifling twist is most likely around 8.5 to 9 inches in 1 turn, pretty common on Mauser military rifles. It was most likely chambered for the military cartridge due to easy availability. I expect that if you duplicate the original military load it will perform much better at the lower velocities. I would check the twist just for fun and see what's really there, then develop a load according to that finding.
 
Could be a custom gun based off the 8x57 or 8x57r. No one says it has to be a sporterized military barrel. I merely brought up the point that it may have been chambered for the military cartridge due to availability of ammo.
 
Could be a custom gun based off the 8x57 or 8x57r. No one says it has to be a sporterized military barrel. I merely brought up the point that it may have been chambered for the military cartridge due to availability of ammo.
This was very common and still is today. Look how many custom rifles today are .223 and .308, times were harder then and ammo was in short supply because of the war. 8mm Mauser was plentiful then. It was literally laying everywhere in the postwar cleanup. Supply depots across Germany were raided for everything useful when the military surrendered and ammo was grabbed as well. The hard times after WW1 was still fresh on some German people's mind and they hoarded up anything they could get their hands on.
 
have a rifle I suspect is shot out. It’s an old 8mm-06, seems to shoot fine but when I chrony handloads, I’m finding that 2900fps loads are clocking 2500 and 2600 FPS lids are clocking 2100. Having checked the obvious (scale, etc), I’m now going to get a smith to take a cast and see whose what.

If the barrel looks good inside and it's had a GOOD cleaning, I'd question the loads. How do you know the "2900 fps" loads are really 2900 fps?
 
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