Revolver or Semi-Auto for EDC?
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Trunk Monkey
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One of the biggest advantages I see in not having a "carry rotation" is I'm never presented with a situation where I would carry my Glock 26 but since it's not in the rotation this week it's not loaded and I'm lazy so I grab the J Frame.
My two carry guns are always loaded and the 26 is on my person if I'm wearing clothes in case SWMBO sends me to the store for ice cream
My two carry guns are always loaded and the 26 is on my person if I'm wearing clothes in case SWMBO sends me to the store for ice cream
Styx
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I have nothing against anything you stated. If feel uncomfortable carrying less than 10 rounds in the mag, then carry more. I, like most, feel comfortable carrying revolvers and 6-8+1 single stacks. To each their own. I kind of like fireside44's statement about "someone has to get bit by sharks, struck by lightning, and win the lottery so if you're lucky I guess you should have [an] auto."
I feel like this is another caliber type debate that will only result in going around in circles. There really isn't any data or proof either way to prove anything. Heard one clerk at my LGS tell another customer that he carried a 10mm Glock because because anything less would not take out a high drug addict. Many believe you need a 40s&w, 357sig, 45acp, or even a 10mm else you're under armed. Anything less is inadequate. Likewise some think they need to carry dozens of rounds for when they have to take on several drugged up criminals. Others are fine with carrying a 380, 9mm, 38 Special, etc just like, bases on the popularity of j-frames, single stack 9mms, and 1911s, most people who carry feel just fine with carrying less than the arbitrary 10+ rounds.
Those folks are discussing crap as they think tech is solution.
A great trainer, John Holschen says:
Another from Marty Hayes (on the rare event):
Since I've been hit by lightning, I don't give much credence to the folks who mock carrying more as it's as rare as blah, blah.
Just admit, you take the risk of not having what it takes for a critical incident with some intensity. If you mock - tell me if you have intensively trained with the limited gun - or else it's just hot air.
Just shooting your LCP at 3 yards at the static range. So what. On the move, at various distances, under time stress, reloads under stress?
A great trainer, John Holschen says:
Another from Marty Hayes (on the rare event):
Since I've been hit by lightning, I don't give much credence to the folks who mock carrying more as it's as rare as blah, blah.
Just admit, you take the risk of not having what it takes for a critical incident with some intensity. If you mock - tell me if you have intensively trained with the limited gun - or else it's just hot air.
Just shooting your LCP at 3 yards at the static range. So what. On the move, at various distances, under time stress, reloads under stress?
fireside44
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Styx
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Same could be said of you for by other gun owners for you only carrying a handgun with a reload or two. Why aren't you walking around with a plate under your shirt, and a rifle or AR pistol on your shoulder or in a bag with several mags? Why aren't you carrying 2 to 3 handguns on your person?
There really isn't any data or proof either way to prove anything. If anything, the data shows that it's improbable for most of the over 100 million legal gun owners to ever have to discharge their firearm for self defense. The statistic also says those that do fire on average no more than 2 shots. Then when we break down even further into average gun owners who had to discharge their firearm against multiple attackers, the percentage likely gets even more miniscule. Then if we were to break this down again to those who were carrying 5-8 rounds, had to fire their carry gun in self-defense against multiple attackers, and who were unsuccessful, it'll probably have a better chance of hitting the lottery multiple times. I've asked for proof that the latter happening when this topic came up in the past, and got nothing...
I don't take issue with, mock, or have a problem with those who feel the need to carry more rounds... It's usually those who feel the need to carry more rounds who take issue with those who aren't carrying G19 sized guns with G19 capacity. You don't normally see people who prefer revolvers, Shields, 1911s, etc starting a capacity debate in higher capacity semiauto threads... It's just about always the other way around especially when it comes to mocking. I don't care what anyone carries, and I wouldn't discourage anyone who felt the need to carry more or less just as long as they carried something.
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Trunk Monkey
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I can't think of a way to say this without it sounding like I'm trying to insult you and I'm not.
Based on your responses you seem like one of those people who wants to carry a gun just in case but you don't really want to put any effort into it.
I don't know this for sure but I'm going to guess that you've probably never had an encounter with a violent criminal offender
I have and that's the reason that I take carrying a gun very seriously. That's also the reason I'm not betting my life on a 5 shot J frame
It's fair to characterize a subcompact auto or miniature revolver as a disadvantaged compromise for comfort or convenience. There is no evidence that being equipped with a double-stack auto results in a better outcome in combat than being equipped with a full-size single-stack semi-automatic or a service size revolver.
Styx
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I was born and for the most part raised in Mount Vernon and Bronx, NY before my parents joined the military. Came back to NY from VA to visit family in 1997, and was robbed on the NY subway at night while while heading into the city. Yes I've been in AND witnessed viloient encounters. I still feel comfortable carrying a revolver and my Kahrs K9 or MK9, and yes, I carry them for "just in case" situations that in all actuality will never happen.
fireside44
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A rather negative portrayal yet that is exactly what the majority of CCW holders are. Most gun owners don't train. Most don't make it out once a year to the range. I'd bet most CCW holders don't hit the range any more than they have to in order to maintain the CCW. Many of them don't CCW often, if at all.
Some guys seem to have a tough time stepping out of the gun nut zone and into the real world where guns aren't seen in fetish like obsession to hoard and collect but are just another tool for the ranch or homestead kinda like a nice saw. Having time and money for training is another issue for many and unless you are military/leo or are constantly spending money on it you lose the skills you don't use. When was the last time you were training for a self defense situation? How regular are you with that training? How do you know it will be adequate if you are in a SD situation? How can you be certain you have enough rounds on you for regular carry now? How did you make that determination? And what counts to you as "effort"?
I'll accept that.
But it is completely irrelevant to the question. The number of rounds that will be required becomes a question only when a gun is fired.
That's called conditional probability.
Averages mean nothing.
Even with one attacker who is charging a surprised and frightened defender at around five meters per second, hitting a critical body part and effecting an immediate stop is a matter of probability, and more rounds are better.
Most trainers tell us to start with three to five if there's time.
One cannot reasonably expect to stop and see wither the attacker is going to stop before cutting one open at arm's reach
The number of attackers would be a factor, but what little data we have tell us that if one is attacked, one is as likely to be attacked by two or more attackers as by one. Common sense and basic psychology tell us that most violent criminals prefer having an accomplice.
That does not mean that two or more are shot at, but I sure wouldn't want to be unable to oblige them.
Thibaut
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Thank you, Styx. And others.
My personal narrative as relates to guns is that several years back I was mugged in a parking lot in Texas. He blindsided me and tried to make me get into his car. The aftermath was lengthy and complicated and scary and my life was forever changed. Recently, I was walking with my dog on a low traffic mountain road of second and vacation homes and a couple of sketchy guys in a too slow-moving car made me realize I probably should get a gun. So I did.
I've completed 5 sessions with a private instructor. More to come. I'm not much on sport or club shooting. That would probably not work for me due to time restraints and just because it is not my cuppa. I want a gun for personal safety and conceal-carry when I wish to do so.
I've been training with my husband's S&W 637 and my 9mm first gen. Shield (with TS) and a borrowed P365 (no safety). I shoot regularly with my M&P .22 LR. My 637 has the exposed hammer. For pocket carry, I will buy a revolver with concealed hammer. I really like the Sig and I really like the revolver. I don't plan to carry 100% of the time but when I do carry in a public setting, I will carry the revolver (bedside, as well). When I am away from home and hiking, I will carry the Shield or a new 365 with manual safety. My personal preference, after this training stint, is the revolver over the semi autos. It is a comfortable fit for me.
Again, thanks to each of you for your input. I appreciate.
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Thibaut
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And what is that ?
Exactly !
Styx
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Sounds like you're off to a great start. Glad you took the time to experience both and came to your own conclusions instead of simply allowing other's person preferences make the decision for you.
Have a look at the S&W 642, S&W 442, and Ruger LCR. All have concealed hammers,the and are on the affordable side... With the holidays coming up and if you want something a little more expensive, you might want to ask Santa/Hubby for a M&P 340, S&W 640 or 640 pro, or a Kimber K6s.
Thibaut
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Wish I hadn't seen that. It is beautiful.
Elm Creek Smith
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I carried an M1911A1 for 16 years in the Army until they took it away and gave me an M9 Beretta. I kept revolvers at home because my wife didn't like "guns that shoot back." After I retired from the Army, other than a CZ-75 and a brief flirtation with a Glock 23, we just had revolvers. I sold my 4 inch S&W Model 629 after an elbow rebuild, and my wife berated me for selling "her gun." (She loaded it with .44 Special Silvertips when I was gone.) I lost my S&W Model 681 with Crimson Trace grips to her over that one. During my badge carrying days, I carried S&W revolvers even after my officers started carrying Glock 22s.
Well, I retired last year, and my wife's health is such that she doesn't carry her gun anymore, so I lost my "backer." With us traveling to get to her medical appointments (often out of state), I put her S&W in the Jeep Cherokee console and started carrying a S&W Model 469 with...several magazines. Since then, I found, and after breaking it in and adding extra magazines and a Hogue Handall, started carrying a Ruger EC9s for in-town EDC. On the road, I carry the S&W Model 469 and the Ruger EC9s. My revolvers are now woods walking or "barbeque guns."
Here's a good take on carry guns and the average gun fight and distributional properties of critical incidents:
http://blog.shooting-performance.com/youre-going-to-be-in-a-gunfight-tomorrow/
http://blog.shooting-performance.com/youre-going-to-be-in-a-gunfight-tomorrow/
Jim Rau
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I have been teaching a BASIC ARMED SELF DEFENSE (civilian) class for about 35+ years now and what I advise is a revolver for the 'average' person who does not want to invest in the 4 to 5 times as much training time and practice time needed to learn how to be proficient with a Semi Auto compared to the revolver, and that would pertain to about 90+% of those I have taught. To learn the 'immediate action drills' for all the possible stoppages with a SA REQUIRES a lot of training and practice. Not to mention I have never had a student try and put a round or magazine in backwards in a revolver. I have questioned MANY people who carry SA about what they would do if their guns goes CLICK instead of BANG and the majority do not even know the basic 'tap and rack'!!! Even with all the cops I have trained (15+ years as a pistol and shot gun instructor for the PD before I retired) it is a chore to get and keep them up to 'speed' with a SA. Just my opinion, hope it helped!
To answer your question, on duty I carry a S&W M&P 2.0 Compact, off duty a S&W Shield, and around the 'farm' my trusty old SP 101. But if I find myself in need of a 'hot weather' gun I will, at times, pocket carry a S&W 642,
Styx
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So true... Took my wife to the range a few times when I first got her into firearms. All the guns functioned perfectly, so I never gave it a second thought.. That was until the Ruger LC9s was malfunctioning left and right, and I then realized how much trouble she'd be in if a malfunction happened during the one in millions chance she'd have to even fire one shot let alone dozens...I have been teaching a BASIC ARMED SELF DEFENSE (civilian) class for about 35+ years now and what I advise is a revolver for the 'average' person who does not want to invest in the 4 to 5 times as much training time and practice time needed to learn how to be proficient with a Semi Auto compared to the revolver, and that would pertain to about 90+% of those I have taught. To learn the 'immediate action drills' for all the possible stoppages with a SA REQUIRES a lot of training and practice. Not to mention I have never had a student try and put a round or magazine in backwards in a revolver. I have questioned MANY people who carry SA about what they would do if their guns goes CLICK instead of BANG and the majority do not even know the basic 'tap and rack'!!! Even with all the cops I have trained (15+ years as a pistol and shot gun instructor for the PD before I retired) it is a chore to get and keep them up to 'speed' with a SA. Just my opinion, hope it helped!
I think you're carry choices mimic mine and most Americans who carry firearms outside the home.... Mostly single stacks 9mms, Jframes, and 380s...
I prefer steal framed guns, and do not mind the weight. Instead of a Shield, I carry a Kahr "K9" or "MK9" 9mm. Instead of the S&W 642, I started carrying my S&W 640 Pro... I've been going back and forth with weather to get a SP101 or a S&W 66 Combat Magnum....
mcb
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I have been teaching a BASIC ARMED SELF DEFENSE (civilian) class for about 35+ years now and what I advise is a revolver for the 'average' person who does not want to invest in the 4 to 5 times as much training time and practice time needed to learn how to be proficient with a Semi Auto compared to the revolver, and that would pertain to about 90+% of those I have taught. To learn the 'immediate action drills' for all the possible stoppages with a SA REQUIRES a lot of training and practice. Not to mention I have never had a student try and put a round or magazine in backwards in a revolver. I have questioned MANY people who carry SA about what they would do if their guns goes CLICK instead of BANG and the majority do not even know the basic 'tap and rack'!!! Even with all the cops I have trained (15+ years as a pistol and shot gun instructor for the PD before I retired) it is a chore to get and keep them up to 'speed' with a SA. Just my opinion, hope it helped!
I have had the opposite experience in a different but somewhat similar setting. I started shooting USPSA in 2005 and took over my clubs new shooter training in 2008. I would take first time USPSA shooters, before the monthly match, off to the side and give them a 10-15 minute intro to the sport with emphasis on the safety part and also cover the basic rules, range commands, and scoring of the sport so they could safety shoot their first match and understand the basics of the sport. I also did a annual, 1-day course where we taught a more in depth study of the sport, it's rules, and some basic strategies to help a competitor score well in the sport. We then took them out and did some dry-fire drills and at the end of the day a live-fire practice through a simple stage or two. We usually did it so the next day was the monthly match and they could apply their newly learned skills immediately.
Having done that for as many years as I did (stopped in 2014 when I moved out of state) I always found new shooters with semi-autos did better in the sport more quickly then the revolver shooters (these were few and far between despite my bribes). And this didn't seem to matter if they were experienced shooters coming to the sport for the first time or novice shooter new to shooting handguns in general. Some of the experienced but new to the sport shooters were excellent shots but the idea of shooting fast and reloading fast and all while moving around took the revolver shooter longer to adapt to than the semi-auto shooters, especially on the reloads.
I realize UPSPA is not real world training but its close enough that you see how various equipment, advantages or disadvantage the shooter in a moderately stressful environment doing difficult shooting. The revolver shooter that excels in that environment is a fairly rare bird.
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