Why is .30 Carbine not made in rifles other than the M1?

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TTv2

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Ever since Paul Harrell did the video on .30 Carbine, I've started to dig the cartridge. With soft points, it's very effective for defense use, good on medium game, the guns that shoot it are light, and the low recoil makes for fast, accurate shooting.

The only issue is every .30 Carbine rifle is stuck in the M1, which is an 80 year old gun design. Why is it nobody has ever thought, "Hey, let's make an AR in .30 Carbine!" or made a new rifle built from the ground up around .30 Carbine? Is there just no market, no demand for anything that's .30 Carbine that's not the M1?
 
I think the market was flooded with surplus rifles, and that in the 60's, 70's, 80's had a very different firearms culture than now. At least from what I read.

I think it's a good question. My guess would be to compare it to the 7.62x39. Realistically, until recently, there were only two real platforms for it (on the civilian side)... The AK and SKS. And it is arguably the most prolific cartridge in the world. Yes, some enthusiasts may know of a VZ or a Galil or something, but once something is made so common, why recreate it?

So that's my guess. There wasn't a huge market for small battle carbines and there already a bazillion floating around... Just like x39.

Heck, it took over 50 years for the AR to be the cool kid on the block...
 
So, update it from an 78 year old design to a more modern 63 year old design? :D

j/k

It would be interesting to see the cartridge in some other configurations. All I know of are the M1 Carbine and Ruger offering in a single action revolver at one point. Edit: Almost forgot the Automag III.
 
I have considering building a bolt rifle in 30 Carbine. Something on the order of the Savage 25 or CZ 527. A lightweight walking around rifle for turkey and coyote.

Kevin
 
S&W made a very few N frames in 30 Carbine for the Military to test. Muzzle blast was fierce. They passed.

Kevin
 
I have a .30Carbine BlackHawk.

Accuracy is much better than reputed. Muzzle Blast not as bad as claimed.
Shot alongside a .357mag, or .327FedMag, gives a better perspective.

It uses same powders as .357mag, at similar pressures.
Yes, it’s LOUD! But so is a .357 with 110-125gr bullets.
I really enjoy mine.

I mostly shoot cast bullets over 11.6gr of #2400. 93gr Lee .311”RN. Or, substitute Lee 113gr FNGC for an all around all purpose load.
 
marlin made their lever action in .30 carbine, I think it was the model 62.
Yup. The M62 Levermatic. The first 4000 were accidentally shipped without serial numbers since they were being produced alongside the .22 Levermatics which did not require them.

Taurus made some .30 Carbine police rifles a few years ago, the CT30- the rationale being that they needed a tactical rifle with more range than a 9mm, but less penetration than a .223 for urban combat. Apparently they were not a success and Taurus had to buy them all back.

The Dominican Republic designed and built a .30 rifle, the Cristobal. Some were used in the Cuban revolution.
 
Aside from the cartridge itself being small and light, I don’t think it does anything special. It’s kind of slotted between the .357 Magnum and 7.62x39 in power, there’s many rifles already in those categories.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my WWII Carbine, but with a lever action in .357 and an SKS, I don’t think I would buy another rifle in .30 Carbine.
 
"Hey, let's make an AR in .30 Carbine!"

Yeah!

"But, can we have it head space on a neck? I like that better."
Sure!

"And it might be a little short for an unmodified AR. We should give it a little more length."
Okay.

"Well, what if we just use the brass left over from everything else? It's cheaper. "
(Sigh.) I guess.
But this was supposed to be a retro, WWII, goin' to the Pacific Campaign, type of reminiscing.

"The ARs have a twist that can handle heavy, subsonic rifle bullets they make nowadays, too!"
(Grumble...) Now it doesnt look anything like a Thirty Carbine!

"Well. Lets give this one a cool, army-esque name. That will sell better."
....



You know what?! You can keep your AR and your stupid Thirty and a zero Niche Black whatever cartridge! When someone wants to remember Okinawa they will be looking for wood and park anyway, Jerks!
And I'm taking this donut!

"What was that about?" "I don't know, I think he really likes his Grampa's carbine thing..."




That's how it went in my head...
 
Ammo can be hard to find. A gun shop near me usually has one case of 30 carbine sitting on the floor gathering dust, Seems little interest in the cartridge?
Strange with so many of the M1 rifles out there
 
Strange with so many of the M1 rifles out there

I would love to have one. It's just finding one for less than a grand.
They are cool. Just not that cool.

Six fifty for one that looks like the Fukishima Tsunami brought it here...
I wish my Grandfather wasn't so practical. Knowing it wasn't quite right for deer, he sold it. I had an old dust cover from it. (Or an M-14...?)
 
I’m a carbine fan, and I can’t really think of anything I would change about it.
It’s light weight and short length is just about right, and just has a lively, sporting rifle feel in my hands.
While I have an AR 16”, I much prefer the M1 Carbine for my HD longarm. The 30carbine round delivers at CQB ranges.
 
Yes, dear old Dad was wise when he declined my request to order a $25 DCM carbine through the mail in the early 60s. "They are not good for anything but maybe fox or coyote up close", and he was right. Many others who lacked such wisdom ended up with coveted carbines and/or gun money in their pockets. I am happy for them, but just have to compensate with SKS and other old iron.
 
I'd love to see Ruger come out with a PCC in 30 Carbine...or something similar. But an AR in 30 Carbine...that's basically 300BLK. The ballistics are pretty similar, with a slight edge to 300blk. Don't get me wrong, I like the cartridge, and the M1 Carbine, and would love to see more offerings chambered for it. But the AR is today what the M1 Carbine was 50 years ago. Part of the appeal is the low cost, ubiquitous parts and ammo, tactical cashé....
Now here's the bit I don't understand, there were millions of carbines made in the 40's, by multiple manufacturers, well before CNC, and they all ran reasonably well (good enough for government work anyway) and were fairly inexpensive. Today, Inland sells reproductions, for well over $1000, and the reviews are mixed at best. Sure seems to me that with modern manufacturing they could run smaller volumes with higher quality at lower costs. Imagine a poly-stocked stainless M1 Carbine...sounds like a fantastic PDW or varmint gun. And a hoot to shoot!
 
The only niche I could see it living in is if the whole gun is scaled down to where there's a noticeable weight/size reduction. If it's an AR why not just go 300Blk or 7.62x39? More power, still pretty easy shooting and very ubiquitous.

Something like a KelTec SU16, but even trimmer. It would do best marketed as a backpacking rifle methinks. A middle ground between the SU16 and an AR7.

Which I think sounds pretty neat personally, but I don't see it being super popular outside a small group.
 
Original M1 carbines have gotten so expensive (for what they are) that they are relegated for collecting, and not for shooting.

M1 carbine ammunition is "neither fish nor fowl" and is expensive and hard to find.

The AR platform does everything the carbine can do, and does it better.

I used to collect M1 carbines by manufacturer, many years ago. (That was when they could be purchased for around $250, in excellent condition.) Eventually I reassessed my collection goals, and got rid of all the carbines. I don't regret getting rid of the guns themselves; my regret is that I missed out on the runup in value.
 
It’s an obsolete cartridge that was made for a specific rifle that honestly was a good gun. But with the advent of the stoner rifle and it’s dominance how would a platform compete? If it isn’t an option to sell to a military it’s not as likely to be made these days.
 
Why is .30 Carbine not made in rifles other than the M1?


Uhhhh....”they” did make others.

Ruger Deerfield, Camp Carbine. For all practical purposes identical. You want something more powerful? Get the .44 Mag. Want something cheaper to shoot? Get the 9mm.

But, in thirty seconds some jack wagon will come along screaming “NO! NO! They’re NOT identical”

Close enough. And they didn’t sell well enough to keep them in the line

“but! BUT! If they just made one in 36.5 caliber that had a 1.57286” long case and held 37.226 grains of powder, well, they’d sell a gazillion”. Never mind that it’s only 1/2 of 1% different from something that already exists.

So, if your little heart desires one, there ya go. They’re readily available in really nice condition

I would love to have one. It's just finding one for less than a grand.
I have a friend that’s has one for sale. Universal IIRC. very reasonably priced. WAY less than your $1,000 price.

I’ve put it on the Classified Forum several times. No replies. Everybody wants one until they’re actually available

I bought a .22 Hornet. Guy I know says “wow. Love to have a Hornet. If you ever wanna sell t, I want first chance to get it”. So, some time later I’m selling it. Included a Zeiss Conquest scope. Like new. Great price.

“Uhhhh....I don’t have the money/cant get it......”. Then later whines because I sold it
 
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For one thing, there is not as much money to be made as introducing a new caliber in a new rifle. My book "Cartridges of the World" is almost two inches thick and the typical page has two cartridges, sometimes three cartridges, rarely one cartridge. Cartridges are introduced not to fill a "gap" as to increase the profits of the cartridge manufacturers, gun makers, die makers, etc. The whole ecosystem depends on growth and expanding the market.

Someone here would know if this is called elastic marketing, line filling, or downward stretching. I have been looking for the term that is used for increasing market demand through insignificant changes.

Others have noted that the 30 cal carbine was not a particularly powerful round and it gained that reputation in WW2 and Korea. The real popularity of the M1 Carbine was because it was light, and anyone who had to walk up the hot, humid, hills of New Guinea carrying 60 to 70 lbs of gear, and a rifle, loved the lighter weight of the carbine. It gained a particular bad reputation in Korea against Chinese wave attacks. GI's thought that the bullet was not penetrating due to ice on Chinese uniforms, but that was doubtful. I asked a Vietnam Veteran and retired Colonel, whose Dad (retired Colonel) was a WW2 veteran and was in Korea as the Chinese pushed down from the Chosen Reservoir. He went through Chinese wave attackers in minus 40 F weather. Dad's reply was "the Chinese were all hopped up, they were all hopped up!". On clarification, hopped up meant drunk or some other altered state. While it is very possible that the Chinese soldiers had drunk themselves to a stupor the night before their suicide attacks, the fact of the matter was, they were brave men who were not going quit until they had been physically broken down by enemy fire. And the 30 carbine round was not up to the task. It was simply a pistol round replacement, that unfortunately was used as a front line battle rifle because the package was so lightweight.

Based on that , many of the hunting laws that went into effect in the 1950's and 1960's specifically excluded the 30 Carbine precisely because Veterans making the rules knew that the cartridge was not humane. I am certain the M1 carbine was not cheap to make as the receiver takes a lot of milling. National Ordnance made cast versions of the things, and looking at the linked web site, it is surprising how many post war firms made the things. But the aftermarket carbines I saw, were generally made on the cheap, not something to inspire confidence in the things.

Even though it was not until 1973 that the mini 14 was introduced, who would really want a light weight rifle in 30 Carbine when you could buy a similar design but in the front line cartridge used by the Armed Services?
 
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