Axon wants to make handguns obsolete for manstopping

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labnoti

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For a while now, I've thought if anyone could displace Glock's leadership position in law enforcement sales, it would be Axon. Axon has been growing much faster than Glock, they've gained the agility to pivot into more than one product and market, and they've attained single-vendor contracts with most of the ~18,000 police agencies in the US. Technologically, there is no reason they couldn't produce a Glock-comparable striker-fired semi-auto 9 with MRDS, integrate it and the holster into their cloud-based hardware/software subscription-based ecosystem and sweep that market into their portfolio. As it turns out, Axon founder Rick Smith's vision and mission are in fundamental contrast to that opportunity. From the time he founded Taser based on Jack Cover's technology in 1993, his vision has been to enable the stopping of people without killing them and thereby make killing people to stop them obsolete.

Now we know that Taser didn't do that, and that even today those weapons are not as effective as a handgun when a lethal aggressor must be stopped. But we also know that handguns themselves leave a lot to be desired in "stopping power." We constantly debate cartridge effectiveness, bullet performance, ballistics, gel tests, statistics, training, shot placement, number of shots needed, tactics and on and on, and the only conclusion we can come to is that we just can't be that certain a handgun will stop an aggressor before they can kill, and that it's especially dubious to depend on a one-shot stop. We also know not to conflate killing with stopping, and that while killing is often the result of shooting someone, the meaningful goal is always to stop the attacker immediately.

"I have set a goal that in the next 10 years, we will have non-lethal weapons that outperform police handguns. That is going to be a game-changer because cops are not legally authorized to be an executioner. When they kill someone, it is not because they are out to kill that person. Instead, it is because when they do so, lethal force is the only way to reliably stop a critical threat. However, that will not be the case for much longer. We have a clear line of sight as to how we can outperform lethal force. We believe we will be able to stop someone faster without killing them." Rick Smith

I realize the skeptic will want to see such a thing before they believe it or give the concept much credibility. What we know is that handguns have not meaningfully gained stopping power in over 120 years. We have seen the stopping power of large handguns shrink into smaller cartridges with better bullets and lighter handguns, but we have not seen handgun technology improve in a way that people can be stopped faster and with more certainty. The bullets are not doing anything fundamentally different than they have been for over a hundred years. Handgun stopping power is not improving and there is no vision to realize its improvement (probably due to regulation squashing innovation).

Because of this, it seems highly plausible that energy weapons will displace handguns. Whether the technology will ultimately be less lethal or not remains uncertain. It would seem the critical goal to focus on would be faster incapacitation, because that is where handguns fall short and are quite vulnerable.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterh...-plans-to-make-bullets-obsolete/#1faca7c677e3
 
Elon Musk is a brilliant technologist, and his manifesto is to get us to Mars. Mine is to figure out how we can get to a planet where people do not kill each other anymore,

The only way to achieve that is with a planet without people.

Starting with advanced non-lethal weapons. I have set a goal that in the next 10 years, we will have non-lethal weapons that outperform police handguns.

That is a very tall order. Though I am not really that concerned with saving the lives of homicidal miscreants, the concept of a non-lethal that effectively incapacitates near 100% of the time is a laudable goal, particularly in instances where a threat is erroneously perceived as a deadly one.
 
He has a new product that is basically a two weight Bolo with very strong sticky string between the weighs fired from a thing like a cell phone.

It can whip around a victim and keep them from normal walking of tie down their arms.

I have to laud him for adding ID chaffe to the Taser packs, the original grey pistol grip flashlight Tasers were appearently used in a number of crimes such as kidnapping and some said were being used by police indescriminatly and as a torture device (the originals also functioned as a wand or sorts with two extendable "radio arials" that could zap a person, but you gave up one of your dart and wire packs for it)

I suspect that last feature was the origin of the hand held zappers often mis identified as tasers that were first of all pretty useless and second of all again accused of being a torture device...and they did work rather well for that and frequently left no marks

My Daughter on seeing the Bolo immediately invisioned being attacked with one.

-kBob
 
I’d be interested in the perspective of officers, after being handed a pamphlet of data extolling the stopping superiority of the new less-lethal technology, knowing full well the bad guys on the other end won’t be equally castrated, and will be carrying lethal options as they always have.
 
I’d be interested in the perspective of officers, after being handed a pamphlet of data extolling the stopping superiority of the new less-lethal technology, knowing full well the bad guys on the other end won’t be equally castrated, and will be carrying lethal options as they always have.
Brings back bad memories of when I took Taser certification. They are some interesting technology, but if of fails, its is spectacular. I have seen subjects tased and it just simply didn't work. I remember the first time, he admitted after we got him cuffed that he felt "something," and he knew he'd been tased, but it wasn't incapacitating. (I've seen the same thing happen with various OC formulations too.) Sometimes the toys just don't work as planned. God forbid you use one on someone with a cardiac issue. (Nobody will care that you didn't know about their cardiomyopathy, or you were within guidelines.)

Its a great tool when it works, but you have to hit them with both barbs, and they have to "NOT" be blocked by something that would be nonconductive, and you need to back the Taser officer with one with a REAL weapon just in case it fails. Except for the Taser X3, its a one shot deal, and if it doesn't work, you are standing there at the bad guy's mercy if\when it fails. They also have a drive stun mode that allows you to use them like the cheap stun guns you see at the flea market.

The Taser is already old tech, and soon to be obsoleted by news ECWs on the market. The Phazzer is more incapacitating and safer according to the folks who look at such things, cheaper, uses a rechargeable battery instead of Taser's "digital power magazine", and comes with a warranty. First time I looked at price and such, Tasers were ~$1200 and if they broke, they'd be happy to send you another one for full price. They went nuts when other companies took the idea and ran with it.

These things are marketed as the Star Trek phaser that will allow you to bring any bad guy down and into compliance as if by magic. Reality simply doesn't work that way. It'll be a long time before the ECW is a replacement for the firearm, mainly because its use is still much more specialized than a firearm. I wouldn't carry one as a primary weapon, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so either.
 
"non-lethal weapons that outperform police handguns..."

That is a very tall order.

I'm not so sure it is. The performance of police handguns or just handguns is not that awesome. In fact, a careful analysis reveals they suck at stopping or incapacitating people.

Forget about tasers. This is not about tasers. It cannot be about tasers. Tasers have already run their course. They are what they are. Nobody is arguing they outperform handguns or that they can or will displace handguns. This has to go far beyond anything like a taser. Axon has already pivoted away from taser technology 10 years ago as a dead business model. They've moved into a subscription-based integrated hardware/software evidence management ecosystem. I was thinking that they could integrate something like the Mantis X10 Elite Shooting Performance System to tie duty handguns into their evidence management datalogging. If I was on their board, I might be lamenting leaving the opportunity in the lethal-force segment untouched, but I can see Smith's whole vision is still fixed on non-lethals. That could be a good thing if they're able to deliver a break-through on man-stopping tech. I mean, what's the Gen 6 Glock going to do? I think we know what it's going to do. Will Hornady's 9.5mm Creedmoor change anything? People are talking about the accelerated adoption of MRDS on duty guns. We can be sure that will not be more than a blip in the stats.
 
Demolition Ranch did a video on some non-lethal devices, link below starts at the bolo wrap, but you really need to watch the whole thing, very entertaining.

Link not going the right part, just go to 9:50 for the bolo wrap

 
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So, not trying to be negative but all i gather from this is lots and lots of words to dance around what the specific product is. I gather its a taser type thing, correct me if i'm wrong. The police software and integration is of no interest to someone who isn't involved with law enforcement. If it shoots a disabling laser or something i could see some interest but i attempted to read the whole article and it seemed to be very vague on what the heck they're trying to sell that would rival even a 22lr.
No one who is normal wants to harm another human. Less than lethal is a fine alternative but the question remains , how can there be so much research and talk of integration but apparently there is no product. If there is, i certainly didn't see it or read how it is any different than a taser.
I think it would be a good tool but take the place of hot lead, nope. Maybe in another 100 years something may exist. A battery powered super taser thing would be useless if there were multiple attackers and still could never be a sure thing to stop a big guy pumped up on god knows what. Did i miss the important part of the article or am i just missing the point completely?
 
That bolo doohickey will work great... until it’s actually used. When it wraps up a psychopaths legs doing nothing to his arms which are holding a weapon, who will be the one to blame and who will be the one held financially responsible (because that’s all it’s about anymore, another argument probably not appropriate for THR) for the lives lost and damage done by an enraged incapacitated person who can still freely fire a weapon, stab, detonate bombs, throw molotovs...

I’m still of the mind that a public gallows is the best deterrent, and that the best tool for stopping a threat is a few pieces of 00 buck at 1300 FPS.
 
I realize the skeptic will want to see such a thing before they believe it or give the concept much credibility. What we know is that handguns have not meaningfully gained stopping power in over 120 years. We have seen the stopping power of large handguns shrink into smaller cartridges with better bullets and lighter handguns, but we have not seen handgun technology improve in a way that people can be stopped faster and with more certainty. The bullets are not doing anything fundamentally different than they have been for over a hundred years. Handgun stopping power is not improving and there is no vision to realize its improvement (probably due to regulation squashing innovation).

Because of this, it seems highly plausible that energy weapons will displace handguns. Whether the technology will ultimately be less lethal or not remains uncertain. It would seem the critical goal to focus on would be faster incapacitation, because that is where handguns fall short and are quite vulnerable.

Shotguns work extremely well, last I looked. Problem solved.
 
I dunno about phasers, but I am pumped for lasers.

Lasers were developed for industrial and medical fields (I think), so I guess a laser gun is not "a weapon of war designed to only kill".

I say bring on the laser guns.
 
It would be handy to have the stunner that Miles Vorkisigan said "made it possible to actually shoot first and ask questions later."
It should be accompanied by the polyencephalographic veridicator or any of several drugs including fast penta or pentabarb, or the induction of primary and secondary state so as to ensure reliable testimony.

Unfortunately all fictional and about as likely as Mr Smith's bafflegab.


A short pulse laser powerful enough to replace a slugthrower would be a nasty weapon.
As it burned a hole in the assailant, the vaporized tissue would expand smartly.
Probably leaving a bigger hole than a hollowpoint.
 
During my career in LE, I've seen pretty much every "less lethal" device fail in an epic fashion. Our Taser guy (who was NOT my friend and held a great deal of animosity towards me) insisted in my Taser certification that I had to take a "full ride" including being shot with the barbs and not given the alligator clip hookup most got. I told him that was fine, but I needed him to sign a waiver. When he asked why I told him that my reaction to pain was violent and if he shot me with his (goodness graciously darned) Taser and it didn't stop me I was going to whip his (sitting muscles). He was about twice my size but he thought a moment and just handed me a Taser and a holster and my certificate. I made it a point to hand my Taser off to every new rookie that came along because I'd seen them fail so many times I had zero faith in the damn things. They worked great for intimidation but the actual performance was worst than hit-or-miss, I'd say they worked about 20% of the time or so. WAY too many variables.

Maybe we just grow our bad guys tougher here in south Alabama. I dunno. ;)
 
"...Forget about tasers. This is not about tasers. It cannot be about tasers. Tasers have already run their course. They are what they are. Nobody is arguing they outperform handguns or that they can or will displace handguns. This has to go far beyond anything like a taser. Axon has already pivoted away from taser technology 10 years ago as a dead business model.
If this were the case, then why is Axon constantly spending good money after bad attacking any and everyone who produces an ECW? Just yesterday I got a notice about them suing Phazzer and a few others over cartridge design. If it was believed to be dead tech, why bother?

AXON/TASER (AAXN) FILES UNSUPPORTED LAWSUIT IN AN ATTEMPT TO THWART PHAZZER, IP LLC LICENCEES ENTRY INTO USA LAW ENFORCEMENT MARKET
Omaha, Ne TASER/AXON (AAXN) filed an unsupported lawsuit in what appears to be a last-ditch attempt to stop the PhaZZer Enforcer CEW and cartridges’ entry as the only viable and accepted competitor by US Law Enforcement. It appears that all other competitors have been silenced through litigation using the TASER ‘262 patent; which the USPTO Examiner declared invalid on all claims in its FINAL OFFICE ACTION on April 27th 2018 and AFFIRMED on appeal by Patent Trial And Appeal Board (“PTAB”) on September 27, 2019.

On September 9, 2019, PhaZZer IP LLC (“PhaZZer IP”) and several licensees of PhaZZer IP, received notice of a lawsuit, Case No. 6:19-cv-1721-Orl-37DCI, filed by AXON claiming, among other things, that the new dart cartridge infringed upon US Patent No. 7,444,939 (the “ ‘939 Patent”) ammunition patent. This patent was partially assigned to AXON on June 27th, 2019, and would appear to be in response to Spruce Point Capital’s analyst report that was published on June 21st, “Why The Market Is Missing A Renewed Competitive Threat To Taser's Core CEW” https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/545066-ben-axler/5318647-market-missing-renewed-competitive-threat-tasers-core-cew

Axon incorrectly claimed that it owned all rights in the ‘939 Patent in order to bring the lawsuit which was coupled with cease and desist letters demanding that PhaZZer IP “immediately withdraw and terminate all [purported] PhaZZer intellectual property licensing agreements with Less Lethal Safety Supply, Inc., PhaZZer Holdings, Inc., PhaZZer-USA, LLC, PhaZZer Federal Supply, and any other entity or individual authorized to advertise and sell PhaZZer dart cartridges in the United States, including, but not limited to, PhaZZer cartridges 1-DC15……1-NDC25, and any other dart cartridge not colorably different from these cartridges (the "Infringing Products").” PhaZZer’s Dart Cartridges, 1-NDC15, 1-NDC21 and 1-NDC25 are new and nonobvious according to a patent application filed with the USPTO. Indeed, Axon claimed, in another filing, that it did not perform its due diligence in the acquisition or assertion of the ‘939 patent, it supposedly relied upon Safariland, LLC, from whom it acquired Vievu, LLC in 2018, not Vievu, LLC whom it acquired the ‘939 Patent from.


Indeed, AXON claimed that it is “the owner by assignment of all right, title and interest in and to U.S. Patent No. 7,444,939 (the "'939 patent").” Upon further investigation, PhaZZer IP discovered that the “939” patent was not fully assigned at any time by the second inventor of the Patent, James McNulty Jr., since the filing date of the ‘939 Patent. Indeed, a simple check of the USPTO assignment records clearly showed James McNulty Jr.’s ownership of the ‘939 Patent. Based on the public USPTO records, Axon should have reasonably known that its ownership claims were incorrect and it could not bring an action without all of the owners of the ‘939 patent. It appears that the filing of this unsupported lawsuit was an attempt to thwart the relaunch of the PhaZZer Enforcer and new cartridges on October 15, 2019, as Spruce Point previously mentioned.

To bolster PhaZZer IP’s intellectual property and licensing rights, Phazzer IP purchased James McNulty Jr.’s rights in the ‘939 Patent, and PhaZZer IP is now a joint owner of the ‘939” paten with AXON. On Sept. 26th, 2019, AXON received a demand that it immediately withdraw the unsupported lawsuit, and AXON voluntarily withdrew the lawsuit against all defendants in response that day. Case 6:19-cv-01721-PGB-DCI Document 23 Filed 09/26/19.
 
Tazers can work well, but they need some spread between the barbs, The more spread, the more muscles are likely to be disabled. If they're very close together, not so much.

I was present when people tried it out, none could last more than a fraction of a second before slapping the mat to end it. I decided not to be a test dummy. lol
 
But what about the controversy over if the officer had it set to stun, kill or vaporize??
 
What about trying to subdue some one inside a car or other barrier? Taser's and Mace does not work then.

That's a good point. Bullets have fairly good barrier penetration capability compared to sprays like OC or sticky foam and contact weapons like tasers both of which can easily be defeated by heavy clothing and a motorcycle helmet, not to mention a car. I suppose it won't be long after Google and Apple are controlling all the cars that the police get access to override, but a rogue "self" driven car (that is controlled by the occupant) is necessarily quite good armor for crash protection and therefore any relatively blunt object penetration as most non-lethals would be.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not impressed with the current state of less-lethal tech and I suspect it may be a mistake to focus on less-lethal. A focus on faster, more certain incapacitation might give a better result because like I wrote earlier, handgun stopping power is not that impressive.

It seems to me that any tech that still depends on aiming a projected object or beam is too vulnerable to operator error. Targeting and fire control need machine automation to eliminate the error humans are prone to under extreme duress. But even an autonomous drone, alien face-hugger, or flying monkey would still have to get into the car before it can access the target. That's a pretty big leap in tech -- certainly more than 10 years.
 
Shotguns work extremely well, last I looked. Problem solved.

They sucked against Davis and Twinning, and they sucked against Platt and Matix, and they sucked against Phillips and Matasareanu. There's a reason they're pretty much relegated to breaching now. Certainly they work better than handguns, but they're not practical for constant carry and the hassle it would be to carry one everywhere outweighs the marginal improvement in performance.
 
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