Tell me what I should know about the 44-40 cartridge in a SAA clone.

ontarget said:

I happened upon a USFA SAA in 44-40. I know nothing about this cartridge. Where does it fit in on the power scale? Ammo availability? Is it enjoyable to shoot? Not sure I want to jump into yet another cartridge just now but you never know. I'm still searching for a once in a lifetime deal on a 45 Colt SAA clone.

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Power Scale? It's not really a power cartridge it can reliably take critters in the same range as a medium .44 spl I'd say. Enjoyable to shoot? You bet. Ammo Availability? Learn to reload cause you gonna need it.

It's a great cartridge for black powder, the thin brass at the neck seals very good compared to 45 colt

Fiddly to reload because of the thin case neck, which is what makes it a great black powder round, arguably better than 45LC.

One of the classic American cartridges and having a USFA in that caliber is a treat.

Howdy

Most of my experience with 44-40 is in rifles, although I do have a couple of revolvers chambered for it.

Originally called 44 Winchester Center Fire or 44WCF, the name 44-40 comes from the fact that the cartridge was a 44 caliber cartridge with 40 grains of Black Powder inside.

One thing to be aware of is that originally the groove diameter for 44-40 was .427. These days however, many manufacturers are using the same .429 groove diameter barrels that they do for 44 Magnum and 44 Special.

Always a good idea to slug the barrel of any firearm to make sure what groove diameter it has.

Generally loaded with a 200 grain bullet, as opposed to the 250 grain bullet normally used in 45 Colt, they both had the same 40 grain powder charge in them, so the energy would be the same, but the lighter bullet of 44-40 will achieve more velocity.

Yes, I think 44-40 is very enjoyable to shoot, particularly when loaded with Black Powder. In a revolver it will recoil about the same as a 45 Colt. In a rifle the recoil is very mild.

Not as easily available as 45 Colt, but you can find plenty of loads on line at places such as Midway USA.

Yes, you will go broke with either 45 Colt or 44-40 if you shoot much factory ammunition with them. That is why I have been loading both of them for many years. Cannot remember the last time I bought any factory ammo.

Yes, 44-40 is terrific as a Black Powder cartridge because the very thin brass at the neck expands to fit a chamber better than the thicker brass at the neck of 45 Colt. Particularly in a rifle, all the fouling stays in the bore, very little blows back into the action.

Because of the slight taper of the cartridge, carbide dies are not available. Cases must be lubed with case lube before sizing or they will get stuck in the die. Yes, the very thin brass at the neck, about .007 thick as opposed to about .012 for 45 Colt, can cause crumpled necks if the dies are not carefully set up. 45 Colt is much more forgiving to reload because of this. I always say that 44-40 is not difficult to reload, but I have to run a little bit slower than when cranking out 45 Colts.

The cartridges in this photo, left to right are 45 Colt, 44-40, and 38-40. Notice how the 45 case is straight, while there is a slight taper to the 44-40 and a more extreme taper to the 38-40. 44-40 and 38-40 are made from the same basic brass, 38-40 is tapered down more.






Firing Black Powder 44-40 from an antique Merwin Hulbert revolver.






The same rounds from an 1860 Henry.




P.S. No, you don't have to load 44-40 with Black Powder, it is just what I prefer. My go to Smokeless load was 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain Round Nosed Flat Point bullet. Any brand of Large Pistol Primer. Not Large Rifle, Large Pistol. This load is not a barn burner, but it does speak with some authority. It is not a mouse fart. I used to prefer Winchester brass because the brass at the case mouth was slightly thinner. These days I use Starline brass because it is more easily available.

DocRock said:

Fiddly to reload because of the thin case neck, which is what makes it a great black powder round, arguably better than 45LC.

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Fiddly meaning that cases can get crushed during the reloading process unless you are careful and you know what you are doing.
As for the .45LC, much ado is made by purists about blow-by and a little soot on cartridge cases with light cowboy loads, but it's exaggerated.
Certainly the .45LC case, along with the .44 magnum, is one of the easiest and long-lived cartridge cases for reloading.
The .44-40, on the other hand, is one of the worst.

ontarget said:

Thanks for the info gents. I think I will hold out for a 45 Colt.
@Old Stumpy I am still looking at one of the Pietta offerings like yours but can only find the ones with the transfer bar.

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I did a little browsing and found that the E.M.F. Company distributes Pietta 1873 color case hardened 1873 revolvers as the "Great Western II" which has a period-correct hammer-mounted firing pin. They have a dealer listing function on their website, so maybe you could order one in.
None with the black PVC eagle grips though, but some with PVC ivory and one-piece walnut and other types.

This "Californian" version of the "Great Western II" seems appealing.

Old Stumpy said:

Fiddly meaning that cases can get crushed during the reloading process unless you are careful and you know what you are doing.
As for the .45LC, much ado is made by purists about blow-by and a little soot on cartridge cases with light cowboy loads, but it's exaggerated.
Certainly the .45LC case, along with the .44 magnum, is one of the easiest and long-lived cartridge cases for reloading.
The .44-40, on the other hand, is one of the worst.

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Careful and know what you're doing? Doesn't that go without saying for loading any cartridge?

If a 44-40 case is not well centered in the shell holder on the way up into the decap/resizing die, and the case mouth happens to bump into the bottom of the die, there is a good chance the case will get deformed. Whereas if the same thing happens when loading 45 Colt, the more robust, about .012, thick case will shrug off the blow without damage. That is why I always run a bit slower when loading 44-40, or 38-40 for that matter, so if I feel the case bump into the die I can stop the stroke before any damage happens. A simple matter of running a bit slower and paying attention.

As I said before, the very thin brass at the case mouth, only about .007 thick, can cause problems if your dies are not set up properly. When forming the crimp, as the case rises and 'swallows' the bullet, if the crimp is formed too high on the bullet the very thin brass is not robust enough to dig into the bullet. Instead the brass will ride down and form a bulge under the bullet.

Like this. I set up my dies really badly to emphasize the effect.






What it boils down to is the 45 Colt is more forgiving for the novice reloader who may have been a little bit sloppy in setting up his crimp dies. If the crimp is a little bit high, the thicker brass will bite into the bullet without crumpling. As I have said a bazillion times on many forums, 44-40 is not difficult to load, it is just a bit fussy. If you take your time and set your dies properly, it is not difficult. Been doing it for a long time.

Regarding soot and blowby on 45 Colt cartridges being exaggerated, absolutely, with a revolver it is not a problem. However I will never forget the first cowboy match I attended watching gas jetting out of the top of the frame of rifles chambered for 45 Colt. Caused by blowby with cartridges that were not properly expanding to seal the chamber. This never happens with 44-40, because the thin brass at the neck expands and seals the chamber, preventing blowby from leaking past the case head. That is why we Black Powder shooters love 44-40 so much. Almost nothing gets past the case head. All the fouling remains in the bore, where it is simple to clean out. No detailed stripping for cleaning necessary.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Regarding soot and blowby on 45 Colt cartridges being exaggerated, absolutely, with a revolver it is not a problem. However I will never forget the first cowboy match I attended watching gas jetting out of the top of the frame of rifles chambered for 45 Colt. Caused by blowby with cartridges that were not properly expanding to seal the chamber. This never happens with 44-40, because the thin brass at the neck expands and seals the chamber, preventing blowby from leaking past the case head. That is why we Black Powder shooters love 44-40 so much.

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I can only question what loads they were shooting.
While I have not fired the quantity of .45 Colt through rifles as CAS shooters, no doubt, I have fired several hundreds of rounds through my Uberti 1866 short rifle and also a couple of Marlin 1894 Cowboys.
And while I have also not fired black powder loads in either, the smokeless loads were all Cowboy loads with a 250 grain bullet at about 800 FPS. I never experienced anything but normal case expansion and sealing at any time.

So, I can only surmise that the only reason that .45 Colt cases would not expand and seal the chamber would be because the loads were very mild and loaded for the short ranges used in CAS shooting with carbines.
I would surmise that the loads used were with 200 grain bullets and with powder charges like 6 grains of Unique, or equivalent.
After all the .012" .45 Colt case is just not that thick compared to other cartridges.

Also, .38 special loads are very popular with CAS shooters in their carbines. And they too are straight walled cases with a similar case wall thickness.

Before I would choose to reload the .44-40 in preference to .45 Colt in a carbine, to allow the use of really mild loads, I would simply increase the powder charge a bit or use a 250 grain bullet.

The .44-40 is a fragile cartridge case, as you say, and easily damaged.
I can recall vividly tuning up a Navy Arms 1873 carbine with feeding problems.
With each time being cycled through the gun, the .44-40 rounds rapidly showed creasing and wear much worse than with any other cartridge that I had done this with. Worse, with each pass through the 1873 slam-bang action, the factory crimp on these paper thin cases started failing and bullets began to telescope inward.
This despite also having a case cannelure behind the bullet.
With .45 Colt cartridges in 1866 and 1873 actions, with no cannelure, repeated cycling is much less of a problem.

Having said all this, I love to hand load, and would happily load .44-40 for an 1866 or 1873 carbine for the fun of it because of the Old West authenticity factor. It would be wonderful to hunt deer with it, dressed in authentic 19th century clothing.

I would get it for no other reason than its a USFA. Other than that you can run hotter loads in the SAA type guns than in a '66, '73 or similar action. In regards to the case mouth issue I'm gonna throw a flag. I've only done 32-20 but the crumpled mouth claim has been echoed far too often in excess of what could be considered a viable precaution. As far as gas blow-by I think that is less an issue in revolvers than rifles. But if you just want a 45 there's nothing wrong with holding out either.

blue32 said:

I would get it for no other reason than its a USFA. Other than that you can run hotter loads in the SAA type guns than in a '66, '73 or similar action. In regards to the case mouth issue I'm gonna throw a flag. I've only done 32-20 but the crumpled mouth claim has been echoed far too often in excess of what could be considered a viable precaution. As far as gas blow-by I think that is less an issue in revolvers than rifles. But if you just want a 45 there's nothing wrong with holding out either.

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I don't think that shooting hot loads in any Colt SAA or Colt clone is wise. Stick to factory levels and get a Blackhawk for heavy loads.
But if you really like this revolver, then buy it.
If you load carefully and slowly with a single stage press, you should do okay after a bit of trial and error.
You could also load for your revolver with a vintage Lyman tong tool which only neck sizes, which would be easier on the cases.
Many did, from the 1870s onward.

"It would be wonderful to hunt deer with it, dressed in authentic 19th century clothing."

I haven't been successful with getting our local deer to wear costumes. Even my dogs are unwilling.

Please forgive my extreme ignorance, but would it be possible to ream 44-40 chambers out to fit 44 special rounds?

blue32 said:

In regards to the case mouth issue I'm gonna throw a flag. I've only done 32-20 but the crumpled mouth claim has been echoed far too often in excess of what could be considered a viable precaution.

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Howdy Again

I can assure you I am not exaggerating how easy it is to crumple the neck of a 44-40. Over the years I have developed a couple of techniques which allow me to avoid crumpling necks, but if your dies are not set just so, you run the risk of crumpling a neck. I have coached oodles of shooters over the years in how to avoid crumpled necks. No, I have not experienced crumpled necks with 32-20. I believe the reason is the mouth diameter is so much smaller than 44-40. Left to right in this photo are a 44-40. a 38-40. and a 32-20. Notice how much smaller in diameter the 32-20 is at the case mouth. Logic tells me that even though the 32-20 has the same thin brass at the case mouth, I just measured some Starline brass and they are running around .0065-.007, pretty much the same as 44-40, because the diameter is so much less, the geometry of the smaller circle makes it more robust. Think about it for a minute.






Yes, most CAS shooters are shooting light loads in their 45 Colt rifles, which probably has some affect on how well the case expands to seal the chamber. Absolutely, if they loaded their rifles stiffer, there would probably be less blowby.

Yes, the thin brass at the neck of a 44-40 does not make for a very robust crimp. Absolutely. I load my 44-40s with Black Powder, the powder is compressed a bit by the bullet. So basically there is a Black Powder plug inside each of my cases. This effectively prevents the bullet from telescoping back into the case, no matter how many times I cycle them through a rifle. However I keep some 44-40 dummies on hand, which only carry a bullet, there is no primer or powder. Absolutely, if I run them through a rifle a few times, the action of the magazine spring slamming the column of cartridges backwards every time a round is stripped out of the magazine does tend to telescope some bullets into the cases. Absolutely. Some folks think recoil does this, but no, the magazine spring does it. If I was shooting Smokeless 44-40 in CAS, I'm sure the empty airspace in the rounds would allow the bullets to telescope back if run through the rifle a few times.

I know some guys who use a Redding profile crimp die to give some extra squeeze to the crimp and they report it does a good job. I am using a standard RCBS 3 piece die set (not the fancy-shmancy Cowboy dies). For my 44-40 rounds I only seat the bullet with the standard seating/crimp die, I crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. Even though this does not form a godzilla strong crimp, it is enough for my BP loads, because the bullets will not set back against the plug of Black Powder.

Regarding running hotter loads through a USFA revolver: not a good idea. Stick with standard SAAMI pressures.

Tallball said:

I haven't been successful with getting our local deer to wear costumes. Even my dogs are unwilling.

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You have to speak to them nicely.

Tallball said:

Please forgive my extreme ignorance, but would it be possible to ream 44-40 chambers out to fit 44 special rounds?

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This question gets asked a lot.

The answer is no.

The 44-40 case is wider at the rear than a 44 Special or 44 Magnum case. While standard groove diameter for 44 Special and 44 Mag is .429, reaming the front end of a 44-40 chamber for 44 Special will not touch the rear of the chamber. You will wind up with a chamber too wide at the rear for 44 Special and if you don't split cases they will balloon out at the rear much more than they should.


44-40 cartridge and chamber spec drawing:






44 Special cartridge and chamber spec drawing:





Notice the rear of the 44-40 chamber is about .011 larger in diameter at the rear than the 44 Special chamber.

P.S. I'm not a hunter. If I were, I doubt I could get the local deer to dress up in historically accurate costumes.

Tallball said:

"It would be wonderful to hunt deer with it, dressed in authentic 19th century clothing."

I haven't been successful with getting our local deer to wear costumes. Even my dogs are unwilling.

Please forgive my extreme ignorance, but would it be possible to ream 44-40 chambers out to fit 44 special rounds?

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No the 44-40 is fatter