Why are my Shots Walking?

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Purple Bikerr

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I shoot a Mauser 98 chambered in .30-06 for Hi-Power Silhouette. I have shot maybe 2000 rds through this one. No idea how many before I got it, though the "story" dad was told was it was a WWII gun. I got it in 1975.

Last year I noticed that my shots would shoot to the right as the barrel heated up. The scope was checked by the factory, no issues for a 30 cycle test, the scope mounts and action screws are tight.

I then had the action glass bedded, hoping that would solve the problem. It didn't.

A few guys I shoot with think that the barrel may have gotten "heat stressed."

The gun isn't worth rebarreling, but I am curious as to what is causing the rounds walk.

The first 3 rounds with a cold barrel are spot on, 2" at 550 yds. Then as the barrel heats up the next shot is 4" right, the next is 4" more, etc. until it stops walking approx. 2 feet (+ -) right of the 1st shot.

My spotter just shook his head and replied, "What the hell!"

Got any ideas.

Yes, a new gun is on the docket.
 
Since steel expands as it heats, its very possible the barrel and-or action is now expanding and pushing more on one side than the other due to some imperfection. Based on the crazy divergence from the cold shots, I think it’s probably more of an issue with the stock and/or in the bedding failing or the barrel being shot out than just a steel imperfection.

At 550 yards it doesn’t take much to push a bullet off course. But 2’? That’s a lot!

I’d have a bedding and action expert check it out first, that person my find a crack or other failure underneath.

Stay safe.
 
When the action was bedded was the barrel free floated ? what barrel is on the gun ? The 98 Mauser was not produced in 30-06 so the action would have been re-barreled. Is it a standard profile barrel , a heavy barrel , or a step profile ?
 
mnrivrat said:
When the action was bedded was the barrel free floated ? what barrel is on the gun ? The 98 Mauser was not produced in 30-06 so the action would have been re-barreled. Is it a standard profile barrel , a heavy barrel , or a step profile ?
Click to expand...

Good question, just what type of barrel is on the action?. There were very few 30-06 military Mausers, The Norweigian and Brazilians had M98 military rifles rebarreled to 30-06. They are very uncommon.

I have one M96 that looked almost new on the rack. A good reason it was hardly used is because the barrel walks horizontally as it heats up. Big changes at 100 yards. I bedded the action, played around with channel bedding, it still walked. I believe my barrel is showing stresses from being "straightened"

etv0fXo.jpg

Barrel were bent in the factory to make them "straight". This is known and I believe bending created stresses that are revealed as the barrel heats up. There are outfits that will cryo treat barrels, and I thought about sending my M96 off for a cryo treatment, but I have not done that.
 
im going to tell you what happened and why it is doing that and how to fix it. it is worth fixing and will shoot better than ever after you fix it always on the x with out walking. common problem with about 1 out of 10 rifles. your barrel has more stress in one side than the other. when it heats up it walks to the side that is pushed by the other side. in other words it bends when heated. the easy fix is cryo genic treast the barrel it will cost a little and their are many co. out their who will do it. some charge alot and others wont. they all use the same method, get a good price. strip your gun down to action and barrel and send it to them. it will come back shooting better than it ever did. even if it is old it now will last way longer than ment to be. it will never walk again. it will also probably shoot you bullets about 100 ft persecond faster than before. slickins the bore up also by this treatment. if you want to make that old gin a tackdriver even more. when you get is back god to the auto store and do this. buy big fat neopreme O rings that have a hole slight smaller than you barrel . one back from the muzzle to a tight row of 6 inches slip on those O ring tight next to each other. cover in nice cameo camoflage tape for looks. this will greatly reduce barrel whip when the gun is discharged. between the cryo treatment that takes away barrel stress and the rubber o O rings that gun will become your favorite at the range and with the right bullet length for the twist of you rifling it will become a one hole ragged shooting gun. TRUST ME,I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. info should be shared and never kept under a bushel basket. gave this info to many shooters and it worked every time.
 
Catman42 said:
im going to tell you what happened and why it is doing that and how to fix it. it is worth fixing and will shoot better than ever after you fix it always on the x with out walking. common problem with about 1 out of 10 rifles. your barrel has more stress in one side than the other. when it heats up it walks to the side that is pushed by the other side. in other words it bends when heated. the easy fix is cryo genic treast the barrel it will cost a little and their are many co. out their who will do it. some charge alot and others wont. they all use the same method, get a good price. strip your gun down to action and barrel and send it to them. it will come back shooting better than it ever did. even if it is old it now will last way longer than ment to be. it will never walk again. it will also probably shoot you bullets about 100 ft persecond faster than before. slickins the bore up also by this treatment. if you want to make that old gin a tackdriver even more. when you get is back god to the auto store and do this. buy big fat neopreme O rings that have a hole slight smaller than you barrel . one back from the muzzle to a tight row of 6 inches slip on those O ring tight next to each other. cover in nice cameo camoflage tape for looks. this will greatly reduce barrel whip when the gun is discharged. between the cryo treatment that takes away barrel stress and the rubber o O rings that gun will become your favorite at the range and with the right bullet length for the twist of you rifling it will become a one hole ragged shooting gun. TRUST ME,I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. info should be shared and never kept under a bushel basket. gave this info to many shooters and it worked every time.
Click to expand...

Now I have to find that M96 and a list of cryo companies. When I called one cryo company, they told me to loosen the barrel in the action, or remove it.
 
If it’s worth owning and worth shooting, then it’s worth replacing the barrel on. Buy a stress relieved barrel with no rounds through it and concern yourself with the cost of the next 6,000 rounds. If you don’t find the cost justified then rid yourself of the rifle and be happy knowing it has taken its final walk on you.
 
i would give you the name of a cryo co i have used for 20 years if it is legal here. some sites wont allow that. if i get the go ahead i will. honestly a used old barrel like yours can be better than new with a cryo treatment. dont rebarrel it, CRYO it. if i get the go ahead i will post the name of a cryo co that is relible and reasonable in price. they have done dozens of barrels fom me plus banjo parts also as ive built banjos also.
 
The most common cause for a gun to walk as it heats is a less than true action. Cryo treatment will not help in that case - only re-cutting the surfaces and threads of the action true and fitting a new barrel will resolve the issue.

The barrel or stock/bedding could also be part of the story.
 
Metals have a grain structure and in a rifle barrel it would look similar to this ------ or grains of rice lined up nose to tail. A re-straightened barrel's grain structure might look similar to this ---/---. To see the effect, use a piece of rope as a whip; then tie a knot in the middle and it isn't as good of a whip.
Having a barrel frozen will change it to ------.

The effects of poor stock bedding as the barrel expands from heat can have the same effect.
 
The cryo treatment option is very intriguing. I may try that route just out of curiosity. I need to think about it. Thanks for all the replies. Special thanks to catman42!!

Though what Llamm Bob says makes perfect sense.

Seeing my reply ,in type, has given me a "moment of clarity".

The gun is being sold.
 
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I had trouble with two rifles walking at the range a few days ago. They just installed concrete benches. I disassembled one rifle when I got home looking for problems. I finally remembered the benches. I think I may have allowed the buttstock touch the bench which isn't a big deal on a carpeted wooden bench but an issue on concrete.
 
Purple Bikerr said:
The cryo treatment option is very intriguing. I may try that route just out of curiosity. I need to think about it. Thanks for all the replies. Special thanks to catman42!!

Though what Llamm Bob says makes perfect sense.

Seeing my reply ,in type, has given me a "moment of clarity".

The gun is being sold.
Click to expand...
Good decision. Selling those which don't shoot and replacing them by some which do shoot is expensive, but never as expensive as trying to make a bad gun shooting straight and wasting ammunition. I have made mistakes.
 
Catman42 said:
CRYO it.
Click to expand...
PATIENT ZERO here !
I did a thread here about a year ago about my 1903 Springfield built for competition &
with first shot it will drill center, but I have to wait about 10 to 15 minutes to shoot again
or it will move.
If I wait the allotted time it will continue drilling center.
I need to look back & see if anyone mentioned CRYO back then.
But like lots of them said back then, it sounded very unusual but with a stressed barrel, maybe.
Best I remember it is a turned Remington early 40's barrel.
Perhaps turning a barrel can heat it up.
CRYO sounds worth a try in your case. Maybe even mine.
 
I have had this gun since 1975. Dad bought it used. It has seen many years in the deer woods and even killed a few. I haven't hunted with it for 20 yrs.

It's been relegated to knocking over steel rams at 500 meters and his smaller friends at closer distances for the last 15 yrs. Roughly 400 rds. a year.

That is a lot of lead and powder down the tube. Damn, I just realized.... that's 6,000 rds!! Plus what was shot in the years before Hi-Power Silhouette .

It was my first .30-06, but if the gun is shot enough, well, it is shot enough. No sense spending money on a gun that isn't worth much.

I asked a member at the range I frequent, whose opinion I highly respect, if he thought the gun was worth rebarreling.

Without hesitation, he shook his head and said "no".
 
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Skylerbone said:
You can always read from guys that make record setting barrels about cause. Sometimes these articles have more influence on my decisions than internet strangers.
Click to expand...

Good point. As a retired mechanical engineer, I don't allow advertising to change engineering. By what you posted Lilja nor any of the other high end barrel manufacturers are not going to disclose what they really do as the word proprietary kicks in.

However, if you are interested:
https://www.protoxrd.com/residual-stress-info.html
https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/979/residual-stress
Turning:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0007850612001023
Broaching:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/broaching

Yes, it is book "stuff"; OTOH, it applies to everything.

It does get really deep; however, pulling a button, cutting rifling etc all create residual stresses. The only current process I am aware of that does not create residual stress in barrels is hammer forging.
Obviously there are methods; however, proprietary kicks in and that knowledge is highly protected.

There are older processes which also work and quite well: https://www.indstl.com/annealing-normalizing-stress-relieving/

Engineering is engineering..
 
Slamfire said:
Good question, just what type of barrel is on the action?. There were very few 30-06 military Mausers, The Norweigian and Brazilians had M98 military rifles rebarreled to 30-06. They are very uncommon.
Click to expand...
There are also the South American Mausers that were arsenal converted to 30-06 marked 30 and receiver notched, some done in country by just rechambering from 7.65 that didn't shoot so well and some done by FN that were rebarreled and do tend to shoot well.
 
TikkaShooter said:
The only current process I am aware of that does not create residual stress in barrels is hammer forging.
Click to expand...

And so are you refuting your own links? Not only does it induce stress but most hammer forged barrels share a common trait, that is their exteriors are turned as a final finishing process to eliminate those ugly hammer marks. This too induces stress. Have a look at Ruger’s 10/22 LVT barrel which is not turned down after hammering to see what that looks like.

Proprietary trade secrets or not, the proof is in the shooting and I’ll simply ask the question: which BR guys here cryo treat their barrels?

F40471DF-6EB2-496F-B2CF-754D93EE5C1D.jpeg
 
Skylerbone said:
And so are you refuting your own links? Not only does it induce stress but most hammer forged barrels share a common trait, that is their exteriors are turned as a final finishing process to eliminate those ugly hammer marks. This too induces stress. Have a look at Ruger’s 10/22 LVT barrel which is not turned down after hammering to see what that looks like.

Proprietary trade secrets or not, the proof is in the shooting and I’ll simply ask the question: which BR guys here cryo treat their barrels?
Click to expand...


A hammer forged barrel outside can be finished with emery cloth.. Turning stresses vary by how much material has been removed and how fast it was removed..

BR barrels are manufactured with higher quality controls which is why they cost. Cyro is a quick fix for barrels with issues. I sincerely doubt a BR would need cyro because I highly doubt they were re-straightened.

Lilja uses vacuum stress relieving.
"The best method of doing so is by heating the barrel to a temperature of about 1100º F. and holding the steel at that temperature for a predetermined time. To prevent decarburization of the steel it is best to perform this step in a vacuum furnace where the atmosphere is pumped out. Following this heat treating operation the barrels are completely stress free."
https://riflebarrels.com/vacuum-stress-relieving/
Notice Lilja defined what they do; the "about 1100º F" and the "temperature for a predetermined time" is what they didn't share or proprietary to their internal processes.

All that and more is why Lilja and others cost so much.

Does fluting do anything for accuracy?
https://bartleinbarrels.com/barrel-faq/
Although stress is mentioned, no comment on how it is removed.

This is the inexpensive way: https://www.indstl.com/annealing-normalizing-stress-relieving/
"Annealing improves ductility" metallurgical term ductility has a few definitions.
 
TikkaShooter said:
A hammer forged barrel outside can be finished with emery cloth..
Click to expand...

Yes it could and yet you won’t find a single commercially available barrel that’s done that way. So we can pretend snake oil works to turn garbage to gusto and we can expound on the what if’s that don’t apply but in the end a good barrel is what solves the issue or, barring that, selling it.
 
I didn't say they were; I said they can be, not they are and you went from there..

After Lilja didn't go past ""about 1100º F" and the "temperature for a predetermined time"; you ignored and went on to something else. I apologize as you want to do is argue and I have better things to do with my time.
 
I’m not looking for arguments, I’m simply cutting to the chase and dealing with reality. When a question is asked I do my best to respond and having gone through my own hard look at the cryogenic process years ago convinced me there were no shortcuts to accuracy. If my “facts” aren’t facts then by all means point that out and correct errors. If you simply don’t like truth that’s not my issue.

For the rest of you consider this; if the molecules of a barrel are arranged like this:

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIII——IIIIIIIIIIII

and the arrangement causes the barrel to “walk” or warp if you will under heat, then the density of one side is different than the other. That means additional material on the denser side. So, if cryo works, the result should then look something like this:

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIII I I IIIIIIIIIII

as no material is added or subtracted during the process. Now does this “improved” treated barrel look to be one that’s more consistent?
 
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