ASM (1965?) 2nd Model Dragoon: Unusual?

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expat_alaska

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I found this on Ebay this morning. Seller has for auction an Armi San Marco 2nd Model Dragoon, starting bid $200 with no bids. The 4 photos provided do not show the date code (insofar as I can see).

It is unusual (to me) as the wedge, wedge screw, and load lever pivot screw enter from the right side of the barrel, somewhat like the Walker. The load lever screw is a countersunk flat head screw and the wedge screw has a flat on one side that is not aligned with the wedge spring. It has an uncommon cylinder marked "US DRAGOONS" whereas most are marked "U.S.M.R." (US Mounted Rifles).

I have never seen that configuration before and hope to be enlightened by others who are more in the know.

Regards,

Jim

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Armi-San-M...685961?hash=item469f525d89:g:ZAUAAOSwIV5do75o

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I thought that ASM was the first company to make a Walker that year or the year before.
Maybe when they introduced their first Dragoon, its engraving and design details weren't finalized and set in stone yet.
And that model was the result of their first production effort that was released for the market.
It would be understandable that they made some minor changes afterward in order to perfect it.
It also looks like it has a low serial number since that's # 269.
I'm only guessing.
 
I've seen and heard of the US Dragoons cylinder marking before.
I don't claim to be an expert on this topic, but here is a possible explanation that can be found at the following link -

...This revolver has the variant cylinder marking: "U.S. DRAGOONS" instead of the "U.S.M.R." cylinder marking found on most Dragoon revolvers. The "U.S. DRAGOONS" cylinder marking is found on a few late production 1st Model revolvers and early production 2nd Model revolvers as well as Third Contract military 1st Dragoon revolvers in the 5000-6500 serial number range....

https://www.icollector.com/Colt-Fir...r-with-U-S-Dragoons-Marked-Cylinder_i15828149
 
What's interesting here is that the seller is getting around ebay restrictions by calling it "parts." I'm surprised ebay is letting him get away with this.
 
Was it a "Buy It Now" ? The link comes back with an eBay error page and a search has a "U.S. Draggoons" cylinder. I'll have to look at my ASM 2nd when I get home, it has some heavy stamping on the side above the loading lever screw "2nd Model Dragoon Blackpowder Only".
 
I tried the link again this morning and got the same result. Maybe Ebay got wise that it was a complete gun, or maybe the seller got an adequate offer. Last check yesterday there were 3 bids, high was $217.50. I did not see a Buy It Now price.

I think articap was spot on with post #7. Maybe a lesson learned: post the frame for sale and state that other parts are available.

The seller showed 4 photos, which I saved because I thought it an anomaly. Here are the other three, FWIW:

s-l1601.jpg

s-l1602.jpg

s-l1603.jpg

Regards,

Jim
 
I've seen and heard of the US Dragoons cylinder marking before.
I don't claim to be an expert on this topic, but here is a possible explanation that can be found at the following link -

...This revolver has the variant cylinder marking: "U.S. DRAGOONS" instead of the "U.S.M.R." cylinder marking found on most Dragoon revolvers. The "U.S. DRAGOONS" cylinder marking is found on a few late production 1st Model revolvers and early production 2nd Model revolvers as well as Third Contract military 1st Dragoon revolvers in the 5000-6500 serial number range....

https://www.icollector.com/Colt-Fir...r-with-U-S-Dragoons-Marked-Cylinder_i15828149

I forgot to thank you very much for the info. and the link!

So in the end, ASM cloned an actual Colt 2nd model US Dragoons marked revolver because that's what was made available to them to copy?

That's interesting that they had access to such a rare variant and that they then went ahead and built some of them.
That is very reminiscent of something that Colt would have actually done except for the copying part.
I guess that there is no telling how many of these clones were made and when ASM stopped making them.
No other company seems to do that any more.
An early reproduction that was found and then lost to history again!

Jim,
I often try to post the eBay auction number along with the link in case the link stops working.
Also helpful can be the name of the seller.
I'm not sure if it can still be searched under completed auctions on eBay or not.
I tried to but the auction number isn't complete in the exposed part of the auction link URL which we can only see a part of.
Perhaps you can see the entire auction number if you click to edit the post and can then see the entire link?
 
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Articap, if you move your cursor over Jim's link above, the full link will appear showing the complete auction number as 303320685961 as well as the item number 469f525d89.
I used it in advanced search, completed listings and got no results.
Ebay's rules say no complete guns and NO FRAMES!
Some sellers get around that by offering CYLINDER MOUNTS.
I think Ebay probably took this down and slapped the seller's hand for not following the rules.

Jim, my ASM 2nd Model Dragoon also has "US DRAGOONS" in the cylinder scroll but I THINK the wedge enters from the left unlike this one.
Thanks for the excuse to go check!
And thanks for preserving the photos for posterity.
I just added them to my collection too.
Collecting photos is almost as much fun as collecting the hardware and I don't have to keep buying another gun safe.
 
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There is an ASM cylinder marker "US Dragoons" for sale on eBay for $159.99 plus shipping.
eBay item number: 254207356981
Seller: florida-lifestyle
Link:--->>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dragoon-Re...356981?hash=item3b2ff07035:g:~kcAAOSwDLtcvMUf

The ad description states:

"Cylinder was a part of the third U.S. contract and as such is appropriate for a 2nd or 3rd Model Dragoon. The upper cartouche bears the words "U.S. Dragoons" not "Model USMR". The first U.S. contract, which was the Colt Walker and the second U.S. contract, which was the Fluck Dragoon had cylinder scenes marked Model USMR in the upper cartouche. The reason for that was that both contracts went to the 1st Regiment of United States Mounted Rifles. The third contract was initially for the Second Regiment of U.S. Dragoons, which was stationed in Texas. In order to keep the regimental association on the Third U.S. contract, they spliced the die that rolled the cylinder scene. They made an elliptical cut and removed Model USMR, replaced the metal and recut the die to roll the impression "U.S. Dragoons". It is assumed that the Third contract was extended because very soon, the relationship of the marking on the cylinder and the regiment to which the guns were to be issued was lost. You can find U.S. Dragoon marked cylinders on both 2nd Model and 3rd Model Dragoons and they appear to intermixed with those marked Model USMR".

This Armi San Marcos product is a replica of the original Colt cylinder marked for U.S. Dragoons and is historically accurate.

Reference example: www.damonmills.com/PS%20Pages/Colt%20Dragoon%20Cylinder%203620.htm


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