not sure what you're shooting, but the local indoor range allows shotguns. people hammer away rapid fire with pistols all day, but when someone shoots a shotgun, everyone else stops because it's so loud. people outside can tell a huge difference too.
HD Shotgun vs AR
- Thread starter Rivenoak
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- ar 15 home defense shotgun
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not sure what you're shooting, but the local indoor range allows shotguns. people hammer away rapid fire with pistols all day, but when someone shoots a shotgun, everyone else stops because it's so loud. people outside can tell a huge difference too.
Space Ghost
Member
Yes... in Iraq, and it beats the hell out of someone else cleaning me up off the floor...
I was also a prison guard for 10 years, and nothing beats the bloody mess of a knife fight.
JeffG
Member
^ This.
JeffG
Member
Little rural towns....
https://www.wbay.com/content/news/O...erous-times-by-numerous-people-563748631.html
https://www.wbay.com/content/news/O...erous-times-by-numerous-people-563748631.html
Way out in the high desert here, I like 1911s, 686Ps, ARs (62gr Gold Dots) and a Win 1892 in 44mag. 240gr JHPs perform like varmint bullets (with penetration) when fired at rifle velocities. Many years ago, I was the lead penetrator with an Ithaca 37...it was very cumbersome in close quarters.
In a very popultated setting, ARs with a can are probably the best for defense, IMO, and there are abundant choices for excellent performing bullets.
In a very popultated setting, ARs with a can are probably the best for defense, IMO, and there are abundant choices for excellent performing bullets.
Phaedrus/69
Member
I keep several firearms set up for HD use. One is my CZ Scorpion w/WML, SB Tactical brace and RDS. The other is a Mossberg 500 with a WML. The last is a CZ Bren 805 with a WML and RDS. The Scorpion is close by at all times and while not as potent as the 5.56 it has the virtue the virtue of convenience and a short OAL. The shotgun is really more for Grizzly bears while camping and hiking as I live in Bozeman, MT. It would work just fine for HD use but I'm more comfortable with semi-auto rifles and pistols than pump guns. I have a fair number of handguns but I can't imagine grabbing one if someone tried to kick in my door. IMO the only virtue of a handgun is portability, and that isn't an issue while I'm at home.
waterhouse
Member
I’m comfortable with either, but most of my shotgunning is with birdshot at small flying things and most of my AR training is much more home and defense oriented, so I choose AR.
Inside the home I prefer a pistol. Too many times where a free hand is needed and too great a chance of having someone grab a long gun in close quarters. Despite the myth a handgun is every bit as effective as a long gun. Long guns just improve the odds of hits as range increases.
2nd choice is an AR. Compared to a shotgun you have a lighter, more compact weapon with 1/6 the recoil and 6X the ammo capacity that is just as effective. A shotguns only advantages are a cheaper weapon and the ability to shoot patterns making it easier to hit what you're shooting at. At inside the home ranges you don't have enough pattern to help. You still have to aim carefully.
A shotguns advantage is outdoors at ranges between about 15 yards and 50 yards where the pattern of buckshot will improve the hit probability.
2nd choice is an AR. Compared to a shotgun you have a lighter, more compact weapon with 1/6 the recoil and 6X the ammo capacity that is just as effective. A shotguns only advantages are a cheaper weapon and the ability to shoot patterns making it easier to hit what you're shooting at. At inside the home ranges you don't have enough pattern to help. You still have to aim carefully.
A shotguns advantage is outdoors at ranges between about 15 yards and 50 yards where the pattern of buckshot will improve the hit probability.
No handgun is close to the terminal effects you get from a long gun. It’s not a myth.
entropy
Member
An indefensible statement.
Ballistically, they are inferior to rifles, even rifles shooting the exact same round. As Jeff said, the terminal ballistics aren't even in the same ballpark.
The ability to shoot one accurately, particularly under stress, is much harder to acquire, and more easily perishable if not maintained. I know I can pick up my AR pistol or my Ithaca 37 and do what needs to be done without having to worry about whether I've kept my skills up with them. (not that I really worry about it with a pistol, but for the guy who goes to the range once or twice a year, it might make a difference.)
Also, check your premise concerning shotguns. A shotgun's advantage at close range is that it's one-shot fight-stopping probability is astronomically higher than for every pistol caliber except the Magnums, which are correspondingly that much harder to shoot. Of course shotguns need to be aimed for SD, all firearms do.
They do have the advantage over long guns in maneuverablilty and keeping one hand free, (though an AR pistol is virtually the same in this) , and the ability to carry one on the person in your home. But that's where the advantages end.
Space Ghost
Member
No. NO. And Hell No.
Not even close.
A hand gun has one (and only one) advantage..
It is smaller.
Therefore it is less of a burden to carry, and more concealable, making it more likely to have on hand when needed.
Sorry, but that's it.
In no way, shape, or form is a handgun even close to being "every bit as effective as a long gun".
A long gun has major advantages when it comes to putting down a threat.
1. Number one on the list (and most important) is that it fires a rifle round. You're imparting much more energy into the target with each hit. This is also the reason many people shy away from them for home defense. They worry about a rifle being too powerful to use in close quarters. This alone disproves your made up myth.
2. Your increased accuracy statement is true, but not just at longer ranges. At all ranges. The longer range is just a benefit of the more powerful cartridge, but it is the platform itself that gives you the increased accuracy. A long gun is a much more stable platform to shoot because it gives you 4 points of contact with the body, (both hands, shoulder, and face) and a longer sight radius.
3. There are pistol caliber carbines that give you the operational package of the rifle, but with the smaller round of the pistol, but they don't really offer any advantage other than being slightly smaller than a normal rifle, or less expensive to shoot. Unless you are going with a "good" pistol caliber like .357 or .44mag in a lever gun, you gain nothing (or very little) in the way of muzzle energy. Modern pistol rounds like 9mm or .45 ACP don't improve as much out of a longer barrel because of limited case capacity. (not enough to warrant not going with a rifle round)
4. If a pistol was anywhere close to being "every bit as effective as a long gun", every infantryman, in every army of the world would be so equipped... in lieu of his rifle.
If you chose to use a pistol for the defense of your home, so be it. This is your choice, and I wish you luck. However, do not do it thinking you have chosen a tool that's "every bit as effective as a long gun" based on some made up myth you believe... This is not the case.
Drill Sgt: What is your pistol good for?
Pvt: Fight your way back to the rifle you never should have laid down.
FAS1
Member
I absolutely understand that. For me, it would be a little cumbersome to wield it one handed in a confined area and trying to get an accurate shot off compared to my handgun. My handgun just seems more natural, but for those that train more with an AR I'm sure you are better at it than I am.
Empirically testable your ability with each in a home SD situation if you can find a class or competition. Try a FOF, where you have to herd a loved one, open doors, use the phone, keep the gun pointed in the appropriate direction. It isn’t all energy and shooting immediately at someone.
Said this before.
In one class, the experienced folks who hunkered down with the long arms won the day. The newbies who cleared to save their big screens, landed on their butts and judged dead.
Clearing to save your kid was excitingly, esp. when the simulated little kid panicked or hide. One guy ‘shot’ his kid.
Said this before.
In one class, the experienced folks who hunkered down with the long arms won the day. The newbies who cleared to save their big screens, landed on their butts and judged dead.
Clearing to save your kid was excitingly, esp. when the simulated little kid panicked or hide. One guy ‘shot’ his kid.
Source, please.
John Joseph
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I'd just be grateful for whatever I have available.
Yes, I live in California.
Yes, I live in California.
mljdeckard
Member
Questioning "How many rounds are you REALLY going to need?" is an anti-gunner tactic. To this I reply the same way I reply when anti-gunners are trying to justify limiting magazine capacity.
Do you know how many people are going to attack me?
Do you know if they are all going to come at once?
Do you know how many shots it is going to take to put any of them down?
Do you know if any of these attackers are under the influence of substances which will reduce the effectiveness of my shots?
Do you know how long it's going to take help to arrive?
When the help arrives, is there any assurance that they will engage in a timely manner, or that they are more competent than I am anyway?
Are all of my shots going to hit?
If you don't know the answers to any of those questions, you absolutely cannot presume to tell me how many rounds I am going to need.
Do you know how many people are going to attack me?
Do you know if they are all going to come at once?
Do you know how many shots it is going to take to put any of them down?
Do you know if any of these attackers are under the influence of substances which will reduce the effectiveness of my shots?
Do you know how long it's going to take help to arrive?
When the help arrives, is there any assurance that they will engage in a timely manner, or that they are more competent than I am anyway?
Are all of my shots going to hit?
If you don't know the answers to any of those questions, you absolutely cannot presume to tell me how many rounds I am going to need.
Space Ghost
Member
^^^ Good answer... if (and I mean IF) you can get some leftist anti-gunner to shut his trap long enough to listen.
tommy.duncan
Member
rbernie
Contributing Member
I'm much better at shooting moving targets with a shotgun than I am with an AR, so I kinda wanna favor the shotgun for HD/SD use. I'm *very* comfortable that I can get first-round hits on anything inside of 50yds using a scattergun that fits me, and I'm comfortable with the Federal LE132 load. And yet....
I've not found a good clean way to store an unloaded shotgun my the bed and ready it for action as quickly as I can accomplish with an AR. With an unloaded AR by the bed (bolt locked open, Aimpoint on, magazines secured in the bedside pistol safe), I can bring it into action by retrieving a loaded magazine and dropping the bolt. I can't accomplish that task nearly as quickly with the Benelli M2.
I also can't figure out a good clean way to carry ammo for the shotgun on my body nearly as easily as I can for the AR. With the AR, I can stuff a spare magazine into a pocket or waistband in a pinch, but carrying loose rounds of 12ga in a dump pouch just hasn't worked out well for me if I'm moving around a bit. I'm also reluctant to rely on having the time needed to buckle up any sort of LBE before having to move out. (And I've not yet been willing to 3-gun my M2 for speedloaders..) And sadly, on-gun ammo carriers make the shotgun handle like a soggy fencepost for me, and pretty much ruin the principal benefit of the shotgun in the first place - instinctive handling that shoots where ya look.
<sigh>
If I was comfortable leaving a loaded shotgun by the bed, and if I could figure out a clean way to store spare ammo in a way that allowed me to grab-n-go, there'd be no question that the shotgun would be the choice for me. As things stand right now, HD is either a pistol on my body or an AR15 chambered in 300AAC if I can get to it.
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waterhouse
Member
V-line (and likely others) makes a line of thin metal boxes with a simplex lock. It doesn’t fix the ammo carry issue but it would be easy to leave a shotgun cruiser ready while keeping it safe from small hands.
ridgerunner1965
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I guess im old school. a smith&wesson model 916 riot gun is what I have beside my bed. along with a berretta 92 in 9mm.. that's 20 shots.
if I cant resolve a problem with all that ill be in a pretty dire situation.
if I cant resolve a problem with all that ill be in a pretty dire situation.
jmorris
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I don’t live in a highly populated area but I have a few “home defense” stuff at the ready. Haven’t used much of the stuff mentioned here but .22’s and pistol caliber carbines are my go to for getting rid of trouble causers around the house, more often than not.
I suppose the questions would be, what are you defending against, how many of them, what are you most proficient with and what do you have or are willing to learn and practice with!
I suppose the questions would be, what are you defending against, how many of them, what are you most proficient with and what do you have or are willing to learn and practice with!
herrwalther
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Take a look at the Shotlock family of vaults. They come in mechanical style locks with a keyed backup. Separate models to fit AR and most shotguns. Also if you have a GovX account, they are sometimes cheaper on there as well.
https://www.amazon.com/ShotLock-Sho...ild=1&keywords=shotlock&qid=1574140886&sr=8-1
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