Black powder substitutes ... yet again ?

I have tried it my rocklock and it works well. Used it without black powder under the main charge. It sorta works in the pan, but not reliable. I have not seen any crud rings like wth T7.

jski said:

This has been asked before on THR but now there’s been more time and much more experience with these 2 powders: Hodgdon’s Trip-7 and Alliant’s Black MZ. How do they compare ?

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BlackMZ is basically rebranded American Pioneer Powder 2F which is also the same as Jim Shockey's Gold.

I prefer to use American Pioneer 3F in revolvers because it has a finer granulation which should pour better from a flask.
I always keep the lid tightly closed to not allow it to attract any moisture and it seems to last forever.

Been happily using Black MZ since I started shooting muzzleloaders earlier this year. I have a stash, but once it is gone I will have to figure out what to use. Real black is an option, but only by mail order. I experimented with Pyrodex and was unimpressed. Of the stuff locally available and suitable for my sidelocks, triple seven seems like the best candidate although I have not tried it. Anyone used this stuff? Good, bad, indifferent?

Black MZ. Black powder or a sub. Florida neighbor says its black powder I say it’s a sub. What are it’s primary ingredients. No big deal either way I don’t use anything other than Grafs own packaging.

I’m getting spooked by all the talk of it being outlawed. Fed says I can keep up to 50 pounds. I have two homes. That’s a 100 pounds.

brewer12345 said:

Been happily using Black MZ since I started shooting muzzleloaders earlier this year. I have a stash, but once it is gone I will have to figure out what to use. Real black is an option, but only by mail order. I experimented with Pyrodex and was unimpressed. Of the stuff locally available and suitable for my sidelocks, triple seven seems like the best candidate although I have not tried it. Anyone used this stuff? Good, bad, indifferent?

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Every powder has its advantages and disadvantages.
Pyrodex is the closest sub. to black powder because it has the same ingredients with the addition of potassium perchlorate as an oxidizer.
And it's the only sub. that contains sulphur.

777 has some unique characteristics, some love it, some don't and some use it for special purposes.
It can be slightly harder to ignite depending on the gun's ignition system.
It can be more sensitive to compression.
It can perform more erratic if too much compression is used when it's rammed.
It's more potent and produces more velocity and felt recoil grain for grain, so less is needed.
10% - 20% less depending on the granulation compared to other subs.
777 is a clean powder, but the residue can either be slightly sticky or can be a hard to remove crust ring down inside the breech if loaded with full powder charges.
Once the crust forms it can fool a person into thinking that they have rammed the projectile all of the way down when it's actually stuck at the crust ring.
The crust can almost seem like it has caramelized to the wall of the barrel.
While shooting lesser amounts of the powder won't produce any crust at all, and only a little bit of soft sticky fouling that won't require any swabbing at all for many shots.
Some folks obtain wonderful accuracy with 777, while others may find it to be erratic.
It might have to do with how much it's compressed, with its pressure curve, with the gun, or any other factor.
Just like with Pyrodex, a person needs to experiment with loading procedure, lube, powder granulation, amount of powder loaded etc....
There are cleaners and a patch lube intended just for use with 777.

I usually use the 3F granulation of every sub. powder because they flow better into the drum or flash channel of percussion guns.
The 3F granulations often ignite easier and burn slightly cleaner and faster.

If you like BlackMZ perhaps you will also like American Pioneer Powder or Shockey's Gold since they are the same product with a different label.

These powders can be used for different specific purposes, guns or calibers.
One powder might work better in one gun for hunting while another may work better in the same gun for target shooting or plinking, depending on how many shots are fired and how often a person swabs etc...
I've found there to be a difference in performance between using 2F and 3F or Pyrodex P, and also with how much patch lube such as Bore Butter is applied to the patches.

Thanks, arcticap. I think it will be a while before I run out of Black MZ, so I have time to fool around with alternatives. I may give Pyrodex another try and compare it to triple seven. If Olde Eynesford remains available by mail, I may end up defaulting to it when the Black MZ is gone. Just will miss the minimal mess/fouling of the MZ.

brewer12345 said:

Of the stuff locally available and suitable for my sidelocks, triple seven seems like the best candidate although I have not tried it. Anyone used this stuff? Good, bad, indifferent?

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I like Triple7. I use 3F in my Uberti Colt 1861 and 2F in my Pedersoli Enfield P53. I do have occasional ignition problems with the Enfield as it gets fouled, but never a problem in the revolver.

I’ve used the triple 7 in revolvers and rifles successfully. If I couldn’t get Swiss Black Powder, it’s probably what I would use. Good power, igniting well in my rifles and cleanup doesn’t seem to be any worse than black.

Best substitute for black powder for someone wanting to shoot black powder firearms is BLACK POWDER.
If you aren't shooting black powder you aren't shooting black powder and you are NOT a black powder shooter.

Jack Ryan said:

Best substitute for black powder for someone wanting to shoot black powder firearms is BLACK POWDER.
If you aren't shooting black powder you aren't shooting black powder and you are NOT a black powder shooters.

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If it weren't a logistical exercise to get the stuff,I would happily just use real black. I have yet to find anywhere I can buy it except mail order.

I’m here just to watch. I have used Pyrodex, and a bit of goex recently in 16ga cartridges. I found them to be weaker than I would like. I have a few cans of 777 so I may load some and see how they do. I need something suitable for a Damascus barrel shotgun and 777 seems like a good possibility. If it works well in revolvers and rifles then that’s good too.

considering that its damascus, I'd suggest something with lower power to keep it on the safe side.

WestKentucky said:

I’m here just to watch. I have used Pyrodex, and a bit of goex recently in 16ga cartridges. I found them to be weaker than I would like. I have a few cans of 777 so I may load some and see how they do. I need something suitable for a Damascus barrel shotgun and 777 seems like a good possibility. If it works well in revolvers and rifles then that’s good too.

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It does work very well in revolvers in my limited experience. Accurate, too.

As for your old shotgun, keep in mind that Triple7 is considerably more powerful than black powder; some suggest reducing loads by as much as 20% compared to the real thing.

WestKentucky said:

I’m here just to watch. I have used Pyrodex, and a bit of goex recently in 16ga cartridges. I found them to be weaker than I would like. I have a few cans of 777 so I may load some and see how they do. I need something suitable for a Damascus barrel shotgun and 777 seems like a good possibility. If it works well in revolvers and rifles then that’s good too.

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Others have covered much of the ground here but fg black might be a better powder for your shotgun... what kind of velocities are you seeing with your current loads?

Jack Ryan said:

Best substitute for black powder for someone wanting to shoot black powder firearms is BLACK POWDER.
If you aren't shooting black powder you aren't shooting black powder and you are NOT a black powder shooter.

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Ahh most folks would shoot real Black IF they could get it, thats the reason they are doing substitutes. No one locally carries so its Mail order.

If you guys say so.

I've never had any problem getting it. I've bought it at gun stores, pawn shops, yard sales and rendezvous.

If any one REALLY wants some I'd suggest google key words "rendezvous 2019 black powder" and the name of a town or county and state where you shop. They always have it any time I go to any black powder rendezvous. I probably have a life time worth right now.

Looks like Bass Pro carries it, you guys never go to Bass Pro? https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/goex-black-powder

https://goexpowder.com/dealers/dealer-locator/

woodnbow said:

Others have covered much of the ground here but fg black might be a better powder for your shotgun... what kind of velocities are you seeing with your current loads?

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Slow is the best answer I can give. I do not have a chrono. What I can tell you though is that recoil was about like a 223 bolt rifle.

Jack Ryan said:

If you guys say so.

I've never had any problem getting it. I've bought it at gun stores, pawn shops, yard sales and rendezvous.

If any one REALLY wants some I'd suggest google key words "rendezvous 2019 black powder" and the name of a town or county and state where you shop. They always have it any time I go to any black powder rendezvous. I probably have a life time worth right now.

Looks like Bass Pro carries it, you guys never go to Bass Pro? https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/goex-black-powder

https://goexpowder.com/dealers/dealer-locator/

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Lucky you. I have looked in every shop I have been in and they have nothing but subs. Probably something to do with fire codes, permits, etc.

WestKentucky said:

Slow is the best answer I can give. I do not have a chrono. What I can tell you though is that recoil was about like a 223 bolt rifle.

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I’m not sure if I can tell the difference in velocity by the quality of the recoil. You may be more sensitive to such things than I am. As a matter of fact, if you asked my wife she’d tell you I’m downright insensitive.... your 16 shouldn’t have much recoil anyway, but you might try the tin can penetration test. Load #6 shot as normal and shoot at the can from various yardages. if your loads have penetrated the can at your likely maximum range the load is fast enough. Best of luck.

brewer12345 said:

Lucky you. I have looked in every shop I have been in and they have nothing but subs. Probably something to do with fire codes, permits, etc.

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Same here. I could go to Bass Pro. But that’s 150 miles one way. I prefer Swiss anyway so I’ll just order online.

Jack Ryan said:

Best substitute for black powder for someone wanting to shoot black powder firearms is BLACK POWDER.
If you aren't shooting black powder you aren't shooting black powder and you are NOT a black powder shooter.

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In some types of muzzle loaders, black powder is not optimum.
I don't like disputing it very much but there are also velocity considerations for some folks, and the amount of fouling residue for others, especially in smaller calibers.
There isn't any single powder that's far and away the best for all applications as far as I'm concerned.
They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
Try, clean or chronograph the different types and see which powder that you like the best.
Not very many inline shooters use black powder either.
And I don't see much difference between a #11 inline and a revolver ignition design, so unless someone is participating in a revolver competition and prefers BP or is required to use it then it's whatever the shooter prefers.
In some guns or for use by children safety might also be a consideration.
Perhaps with the subs there's more impact safety, or less chance for a cook off or chain fire, I can't say for sure but that could be another consideration.
When my kid was young, I would never let him load black powder by himself like I woud let him load with Pyrodex.
Niether the kid nor myself had any less fun by shooting sub powders.
Can sub. powdera win local club competitions?
Sure they can.
Can you hunt and kill game with them?
Sure you can.
To each their own.

None of that has a thing to do with the point. SMOKELESS powder is cleaner, safer, cheaper, blah blah blah, BUT IT IS NOT BLACK POWDER.

If your kid can't handle black powder, then he isn't ready to be a black powder shooter. Giving him talcum and a couple match heads and telling he is a black powder shooter now is just BS. I'm not even sure who you are trying to convince your self of the kid.

If you are shooting that phony fake imitation stuff you are NOT a black powder shooter, you are an imitator shooting cheap imitation black powder. Kinda like Mitt Romney is a "republican". Sure you can shoot and use what ever you want, you can call your self anything you want. Call yer self superman if you want but you know it isn't true.

Jack, please be careful. You might hurt yourself if you fall off that high horse.

Most people who start with muzzleloaders begin with what is locally available. It would be nice if real black we're easier to get, but it isn't. So most new shooters end up with a sub. I would rather have enough shooters around to keep the stores and online vendors in business, so I think carrying on about real black or nothing is counterproductive.

I haven't put any forum members here on "ignore" status, but I'm becoming tempted...