Loading 45ACP-Problems Going Into Battery-Is Load Too Light?

If you are seating and over crimping in the same step the plating can get pushed forward increasing the bullet diameter in front of the case mouth. If this is happening try less crimp or seat and crimp two steps.

that oal (1.260") seems about .010" too long for that bullet.

luck,

murf

Walkalong said:

I have always assumed the differences in velocity between bullet types using the same powder charge in the same gun was from friction differences, or energy used to overcome said friction. Sure, some bullets can leak some gas, but I just don't see it as a big factor in velocity. Dunno.

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Glen Freyxell in Chapter 5 of his ebook talks about virtues of sealing of gas - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_5_Lubrication.htm

With lubed bullets:

• Liquefied lube will flow sealing smaller gas leaks
• Deformation of bullet base will pressurize and squeeze the lube ring to form an "O-ring" seal with the barrel sealing the expanding gas
• He further talks of centrifugal effect on squeezed lube ring maintaining the seal as bullet rotates down the barrel

Most of these do not occur with a plated bullet. In essence, plated bullet is a lead bullet with full-length gas check designed to prevent leading. While bullet base deformation can occur with plated bullets using "high enough" powder charge, there is no liquefied lube flow or pressurized lube ring to seal the gas hence more gas will leak around the bullet as bullet jumps to the start of rifling and rotates down the barrel.

And as expressed by Slamfire's test data, gas leak around plated bullets would result in lower chamber pressures/muzzle velocities and why I posted plated bullets "leak more gas" in post #5. Do I have means to measure gas leakage? No, but the numbers below are indicative of gas leakage that I "guessed" caused lower velocities.

• 200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) OAL 1.250" 3.5 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 664.9
• 200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) OAL 1.250" 4.0 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 723.3

• 200 Xtreme Plated SWC OAL 1.250" 3.7 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 651.7
• 200 Xtreme Plated SWC OAL 1.250" 4.0 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 686.8

Excerpts from Glen Fryxell's book:

"Sealing the bore. The microscopic defects discussed earlier are also the source of leading as a result of gas-cutting. Bullet lube plays a very important role in preventing this source of leading by acting as a sort of “stop-leak”. The most important bore sealing mechanism is obturation of the bullet metal itself, but the bullet lube can play a strong supporting role if the lube is of the proper consistency. When the hot gases driving the bullet start to leak through the channels left by engraving, they pick up lube and force it into the crevices as they both move forward. By filling these channels with lube, the flow of gases is effectively stemmed, thereby limiting gas-cutting ...

Lube pumping mechanisms. Now that we recognize that lube must be able to flow from its reservoir (I.e. lube groove) to wherever it’s needed, the question becomes "What makes it flow from point A to point B?" The fluid dynamics of lube flow has many components: simple displacement, compressive pumping, linear acceleration, radial acceleration, and pressure-induced pumping. When the bullet is engraved, the lands displace not only bullet metal in the driving bands of the cast bullet, but they also displace a certain volume of lube in the lube grooves (assuming the lube grooves are completely filled). This displacement serves to compress the lube somewhat, thereby forcing it into contact with the rest of the bore, as well as into the nooks and crannies of the bullet/bore interface

... As the pressure builds, the force applied to the base of bullet may grow to the point that it surpasses the compressive strength of the alloy (particularly for magnum revolver or rifle cast bullet loads). At this point the central core of the bullet in the lube grooves is compressed, getting fatter and shorter, which in turn reduces the volume of the lube groove. Once again this compresses the lube within that groove and forces it to the bullet bore interface ... This is the linear acceleration mechanism, and it operates primarily in the first few inches of the barrel, and so is of particular interest to handgunners.

... As the bullet starts to rotate faster and faster as it travels down the bore, the radial acceleration (think “centrifugal force”) increases to the point that it starts to pump lube from the bullet’s lube groove outward to the bullet/bore interface."

If you're going to credit it to gas leakage, you'd better have some measurements of gas leakage, or people are going to think you're making it up out of thin air. Which you are.

Citing other people's comments/data that you think supports your claim is silly. You're cherry picking. That's typical of conspiracy theorists.

The criteria of whether or not the slide cycles can be attributed to other things, too. You choose to completely ignore those.

Have you measured gas leakage or not. If not, then stop saying it's due to gas leakage. See my first paragraph.

With all due respect to OP, let's not hijack this thread any further.

If you want to start a new thread to discuss the matter, you are more than welcome to do so.

Peace.

LiveLife said:

With all due respect to OP, let's not hijack this thread any further.

If you want to start a new thread to discuss the matter, you are more than welcome to do so.

Peace.

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then, stop talking about it. fxvr5 is right on this one.

as to the op, if a 1.250" col doesn't work, reduce to 1.240" and try again.

luck,

murf

murf said:

then, stop talking about it. fxvr5 is right on this one.

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Then how do you explain lower start charges of lead load data vs plated/jacketed load data? I stand by my notion that at low start charges, since there may not be enough chamber pressure to sufficiently deform/bump the bullet base with the barrel, more gas could leak around the plated bullet than typically larger sized lead bullet thus requiring more powder charge.

I could be wrong and open to schooling on lead vs plated/jacketed start charge differences.

And you are more than welcome to start a new thread to discuss the virtues of more gas leakage by plated bullet with rounded base compared to larger sized lubed lead bullet.

Peace.

I'm a bullseye shooter and had a similar issue with both of my .45 loads:

185gr Zero JHP
4.2gr BE for 25y
4.5gr BE for 50y

185(25y)/200(50y) gr MBC LSWC Coated
4gr N310 for both bullets

I use an M die to bell the case. Well, I got the M powder drop tube to put in my 550, but I had similar issues before starting to use one. Just info in case you feel it matters.

I have not been able to figure out a loading solution, but running everything through a bulge buster after loading significantly reduced my issues.

My best guess is some subset of the 2nd hand brass I have do not concentrically deform when the mouth is belled, whether with M die or not. I've started going through my ammo after loading. Anything that doesn't freely drop in and out of the gauge goes through the bulge buster is relegated to practice ammo, as in the brass gets left at the range. Of the 4000 rounds I loaded in the last month, this only accounts for about 100 pieces.

This has nearly eliminated my functionality issues in matches. Practice is obviously a little trying some days....

I have not loaded my brass repeatedly enough to see if I will be leaving a lot of brass at the range. To replace the brass, I'm buying new Starline brass to load for my 3 more important matches. This totals 400 pieces a year, and when loading new brass, I have no problems. Not a cheap alternative, but it works for me.

Very good point.

Since 2 out of 3 rounds are fully chambering, I have already suggested to OP to check the rim for damage - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ttery-is-load-too-light.859124/#post-11293208

LiveLife said:

gerrym526 said:

about every third round the gun doesn't go into battery with the round. I've used a Lyman case guage so I know the round will chamber properly.

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If other reloads fully chamber without issues, I would inspect the rim for damage/burr/roughness that may prevent the rim from freely sliding up the extractor.

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gerrym526 said:

Guys,

Appreciated all the input, and mentioned I'd keep you up to date on the resolution of this problem.

Here are the results so far-

1) Checked the recoil spring action using the test suggested here-no problem with the slide going into battery.
2) Reviewed the comments on changing (shortening) the COL. I measured some Remington factory ammo-230gr RN-and found the COL to be 1.260-it passed the "plunk test" with my Colt Gold Cup barrel. So I concluded that the COL was fine at 1.260.
3) Plunk test with my reloaded ammo-I used the 1911 barrel for the plunk test-results of testing the 200 rounds of ammo reloaded-

• Out of 200 rounds, 3 significantly failed the plunk test-i.e. the round would not even go completely into the barrel -have no idea how they made it through all stages of my press-including the factory crimp stage. So I discarded these rounds on the assumption that the brass was so distorted that even resizing wouldn't help.
• Out of the 200 rounds, 10 failed the plunk test (i.e. would not release from the barrel when turned upside down)-I repeated the factory crimp die operation 2-3 times on these rounds, and they all passed the plunk test.

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The OAL that a factory uses is irrelevant unless you are using the EXACT same bullet they are using. You're not. You're using Berrys bullets, not Remington, and they might have a different nose shape, so the OAL you require with Berrys bullet can be different.

When you do the plunk test, use the magic marker method described at the link below to determine EXACTLY why your rounds don't fit. Once you know that, you will know EXACTLY what needs to be changed to make them fit.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/99389

gerrym526 said:

Out of the 200 rounds, 10 failed the plunk test (i.e. would not release from the barrel when turned upside down)-I repeated the factory crimp die operation 2-3 times on these rounds, and they all passed the plunk test.

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If that many rounds fail the plunk test, I suggest shortening your OAL and then moving to resetting your dies if the problem persists.

1. Make sure you are getting a full resize from your #1 die
2. Are you getting enough flare from your powder drop die? (I see you use a M-type-- I don't have exp. with that one)
3. Make sure your bullet seating die removes all the flare from the case mouth
4. Set the FCD to give you enough crimp to measure, but no more than you need.

10 rejects out of 200 may be indicative of dies not producing correctly sized cases at at least 1 (or more) steps. It may be happening at the original sizing, powder drop/flare, bullet seating/crimp, or FCD.

Honestly, I would FIRST shorten the OAL as suggested and then reevaluate... 1.260 is within SAAMI but lots of barrels like shorter OALs.

gerrym526 said:

I do remember when resizing this last batch of "scrounged" 45 ACP range brass that some were really tough in the resizing die. Maybe the brass was too distorted to be usable, and should have been thrown away?

Or, should I consider buying a new set of Lee dies?

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Doing the magic marker technique in the link posted will tell you EXACTLY what is wrong and needs to be addressed.

Test fired in my 1911, about every third round the gun doesn't go into battery with the round. I've used a Lyman case guage so I know the round will chamber properly. Also use Wilson combat mags, which don't give me any trouble with other reloaded 45ACP.
Is this problem due to light loads? Do I need to bump up the charge? I'm making the assumption that there isn't sufficient pressure to properly chamber the next round after the spent case has been ejected.

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If you load one round, does it reliably go to slide lock when fired? If every third round won’t go to slide lock the slide might not be making a complete stroke with that load/spring combination. If it does 100% you can move on to another hypothesis.

That is always my “minimum” load, one can move this minimum a little with different springs but gives you a baseline to test from.

Generally, the starting point for me is to find what mag the gun will feed an empty sized case from.



Once the pistol will feed an empty case from slide lock, the other issues are easier to narrow in on.

If you can feed empty sized cases from slide lock, the gun will go to slide lock with all rounds but fails to go into battery with some, the issue is with what you are doing to the case (flare, seat, crimp) or the bullet itself.

One other thing I would be curious about is how it feeds when you slowly let the slide down, so it doesn’t have the inertia of the spring accelerating the mass of the slide.

Does it look like this?



If not, does the round jump out in front or the extractor or will it not go into the extractor and that stops the slide?

next time keep the rounds that fail the plunk test and roll them on a table top. if they wobble that would explain the failure and would bring up questions regarding your seating method. if not, then that is one less thing to worry about.

luck,

murf