It takes 12 rounds to stop a threat, no really, it did.

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I don't, but the way some people draw up their safety plan it seems to be the paradigm. I hear responses like, "I like [.380 or 9mm] because I can make faster follow-up shots."
How would that imply a belief that the attacker would be standing still for the first shot?

While certainly true, those calibers cannot defy physics; the lack of recoil on the sending end of it means a lack of impact on the receiving end as well.
Do you still subscribe to the discredited theory that "impact" is the basis for handgun effectiveness?

If it penetrates adequately, that's all the "impact" it needs. As labnotl put it above,

"It's safe to think of any handgun (regardless of the cartridge) as a puncturing machine. It's not sane to think of handgun terminal effects, even magnums, as explosive. We should think, puncture, puncture, puncture... not "it will blow your head clean off."
If we ever need to go to guns- make every shot count, and make every shot do the most damage it can do if it hits.
The best one can do is make every shot hit within a general area of the body. Each bullet will travel into the body doing damage, which will depend upon the precise location of the entry wound, the angle of entry, and the posture of the assailant. At that point, whether the damage be effective will depend upon what is damaged, and the defender not only has no control over that, he or she had no way to influence that when the trigger was pulled. It's a matter of probability, and more quick shots increase the probability of effective wounding.

The first shot will have the most potential.
What leads you to believe that?

Planning for the worst- I don't plan to have multiple hits...
Really?

...so I choose a caliber and bullet design that makes the biggest ugliest hole it can
Have you ever really considered how little difference there is between the expanded bullet diameter of a 9mm and a .45, when compared to the size of the human body and the sizes of the critical body elements that must be damaged?

Have you entered it into the analysis of whether that, or the ability to make additional hits more quickly, would be more important?

Full disclosure: around a decade ago, I acquired a .45 auto. Decades of folklore about Moros, militaries using FMJ bullets, "knockdown power", "bigger holes", and so on made it inevitable.

I embarrassed myself by speaking of those things here.

Then I was introduced to the reality of Dr. Marvin Fackler's work, and I also found out in realistic training that I was likely to make fewer hits with it in the drills than with a 9mm.

That was due to the higher recoil on the sending end.

The .45 is retired.

And actually worry more about a Cell Phone Text messaging driver taking me out than needing more than 7 rounds of ammo.
I hear you!
 
How would that imply a belief that the attacker would be standing still for the first shot?
You've lost me here. I'm not sure what your argument is. I never said and don't believe that to be true. Straw-man argument.

Do you still subscribe to the discredited theory that "impact" is the basis for handgun effectiveness?

If it penetrates adequately, that's all the "impact" it needs. As labnotl put it above,

"It's safe to think of any handgun (regardless of the cartridge) as a puncturing machine. It's not sane to think of handgun terminal effects, even magnums, as explosive. We should think, puncture, puncture, puncture... not "it will blow your head clean off."​
Nice try. In discussion this is known as a False Dilemma. Puncture vs will blow head clean off.
Each bullet will travel into the body doing damage, which will depend upon the precise location of the entry wound, the angle of entry, and the posture of the assailant. At that point, whether the damage be effective will depend upon what is damaged...
True statement. This is why it's impossible to do actual comparisons across calibers and bullets; no matter how precisely you set it up, there will always be differences.

It's a matter of probability, and more quick shots increase the probability of effective wounding.
Thanks, you're making my argument for me. You believe 'quick shots' will increase the probability of an effective wound, I contend that your first shot has the highest probability of hitting, and decreases as the event proceeds. I've explained why I believe that to be true, you have not explained why you believe you will make multiple hits on an adrenaline pumped erratically moving target; why you believe that is likely.

What leads you to believe that? [first shot has the most probability of a hit]
Obtuse much? Answered already. That you asked a question clearly answered in detail tells me you're starting to run out of argument.

[Planning for the worst]Really?
Again, you're asking a question and the answer is right there answered already. In four engine aircraft take-off data, we plan for the loss of an engine during every take-off run, so if it doesn't happen- gravy. If it does, we're already prepared. I don't plan that I'm going to shoot like a rockstar and make multiple hits on a target (if I do- gravy). I've explained why I believe that to be realistic- maybe you could explain why you believe it's realistic that you will.

Have you ever really considered how little difference there is between the expanded bullet diameter of a 9mm and a .45, when compared to the size of the human body and the sizes of the critical body elements that must be damaged?
False dilemma again. You're arguing diameter when there is much more to it than that. No, I do not subscribe to the 'energy dump' theory, but bigger things traveling at higher speeds do more damage than smaller things traveling at slower speeds- always. It's true for bowling balls, SUVs, and everything else subject to the laws of physics. You seem to be contending that it isn't true for bullets?

Then I was introduced to the reality of Dr. Marvin Fackler's work, and I also found out in realistic training that I was likely to make fewer hits with it in the drills than with a 9mm.
So you believe your inadequacy with the .45acp is universal?

The .45 is retired.
Bizarre and absurd statement.
 
I never said and don't believe that to be true.
Alrighty then. I inferred that you believed that from you comment about an assailant not standing there after the first shot.

Nice try. In discussion this is known as a False Dilemma.
That a handgun is a puncturing tool?

You believe 'quick shots' will increase the probability of an effective wound,...
Defining an "effective wound" as one that happens to damage something critical, and considering that that "something" is small, invisible, and moving ,and since the time available to the defender will be short, I certainly do.

I contend that your first shot has the highest probability of hitting, I've explained why I believe that to be true
I must have missed your answer.

I cannot see why the first shot, the second, or the third would have a higher probability than the others for hitting that hidden, moving, internal target.

It's a stochastic thing.

you have not explained why you believe you will make multiple hits on an adrenaline pumped erratically moving target; why you believe that is likely.
You seem to have missed the point. I did not dot say that I believe that I will make multiple hits. But I have trained to do so, and I will sure try.

My point is that multiple hits to the body will be more likely to result in one or more hidden critical body element being struck than will any one, whether it is the first or a subsequent one.. That should be intuitively obvious.

Again, you're asking a question and the answer is right there answered already.
My comment was aabout the realism of your "not 'planning' for multiple shots".

You're arguing diameter when there is much more to it than that.
You spoke of the "biggest and ugliest hole", and at handgun velocities, that is solely a function of expanded diameter.

So you believe your inadequacy with the .45acp is universal?
"Inadequacy"? Surely you did not intend to be insulting. Read the Code of Conduct with which you agreed to comply. House Rule #4.

Yes, that it is possible to fire controlled shots from a hand-held 9MM semi-auto of service size and weight more rapidly than with a .45ACP is true for anyone. Simple physics. combined with how humans hold things.

Rob Pincus once carried a .45, and later a .40. He now says he was wrong.


Bizarre and absurd statement.
That my .45 is now retired? How so?








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Not to divert but board breaking is a trick. When I did the martial arts, the sensei broke lots of boards. Then, a student, who was a wood carver enthusiast, brought in a board of some exotic dense wood. The sensei's hand bounced off. He laughed as we were all in on the trick.
 
Not to divert but board breaking is a trick. When I did the martial arts, the sensei broke lots of boards. Then, a student, who was a wood carver enthusiast, brought in a board of some exotic dense wood. The sensei's hand bounced off. He laughed as we were all in on the trick.

What about the guys who break cement blocks?
 
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