Where and how have you located them?
The purpose of cameras is not to make you secure, but to give you information
There is a reason why all fighter aircraft have radar, radios, and IFF systems.
Prioritization for Home Defense
- Thread starter Kleanbore
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There is a reason why all fighter aircraft have radar, radios, and IFF systems.
Armored farmer
Member
bdickens
Member
I'm thinking if I was so concerned that some thug might come busting in on me any second now that I felt the need to keep guns stashed all over the place that I'd also stay dressed all the time.
Or, there's always a fanny pack or belly band.
Trunk Monkey
member
I'm in Colorado and I can get away with a hoodie all year long
fireside44
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I'm building my place so I'm still considering outdoor lighting schemes. If money wasn't tight I'd say stadium l.e.ds that can flood the yard and driveway with the flick of the switch. Is it worth the cost of a new rifle? No, because it's pitch black here and it's acres, not a little lot. I'm darkest yard on my whole street, the scariest one too, lol. Invaders already silhouetted against neighbors with in-town like lighting through the trees. So anyways my needs are different than for when I was a city slicker.
As for cameras, I have a system in place. So what? Information is not gained unless you are monitoring or have motion sensors. I live the outdoor life not a sedentary one with hours of screen time. My dogs are attentive and I don't do smart phone nonsense for the latest in remote security monitoring all of which is hackable anyhow so no thank you. The latest tech will never beat a good guard dog imo. The gun is for multiple Invaders and most would prefer to be shot rather than eaten alive. That's why crims don't tempt fate at homes with guard dogs. I own, not rent and am uninsured for a myriad of reasons not limited to breed restrictions and lack of coverage for firearms in most policies.
Jeb Stuart
member
Man you are killing me. I guess you could use flares, and tracer rounds. Maybe a few Claymores set at night before bedtime. Seriously there are all kinds of camera's that give all kinds of information to you and to the police. Many different ways to control lights and many types of electronic security. A system can be designed for any individual for his particular needs. IR camera's, covert camera's, bullet proof camera's. Multiple monitors to include cell phone and on and on and on. Just a simple game cam can give you a little idea of a basic understanding of their capability.
Jeb Stuart
member
The camera;s have the ability to do the monitoring for you and alert you. You say Hackers can get into your home? Man, you have been watching too many movies. Unless of course you are worried about some kind of CarlosThe Jackal coming for ya. Who do you think actually breaks into homes or invades them?
In all my years, never saw any "Pros" spend time on homes. Your VCR is not worth much to them. Unless of course you have millions in Art Collections. Most Pro's would focus on Business's, especially Pharmacy's. Places where they knew Diamonds, Cash and etc were available. And for those places, the Insurance companies sure believed in them. To the point that they would require certain companies with certain credentials to provide the Equipment and the monitoring. Actually a very detailed process, certifications and etc. Some places like Pharmacy's would typically have multiple systems within the same establishment.
And I hope you love your dog. Even your standard Grade a Junky can throw a hot dog with drugs to take out your dog. And if you dog can actually call the police, I would love to see it.
Even if you live in the Country there are many designs that a person could incorporate. Outdoor Perimeter beams for example, Out door motion sensors, fence sensors, pressure sensors etc.
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Armored farmer
Member
In fact...an off season game camera trap might yield interesting info around outbuildings, fuel tanks, and perimeters.
Mine usually get stashed in a cabinet from February until September
fireside44
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People who fear dogs, not cameras. A camera ever stopped who?
I get what you are saying but I don't buy what you're selling to me unless I'm urban, don't own, and can't keep a dog. What you are offering isnt going to be proactive like a dog and I don't carry i-phones and rarely a flip and Im gated so an alert to the cops is gonna do jack never mind the only warrantless searches that happen here are my own. Outdoor life, not tech life. Posted from my only puter, a 35 buck android.
If you haven't experienced the security and comfort of a real service quality animal yet you owe it to yourself. I have 75lbs of very-concerned-for-my-welfare at my side right now.
Exactly!
And they know how.
Who has suggested that that is its purpose?
fireside44
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Thread title is prioritizing home defense. A dog was a priority for me over a camera for many reasons. Everyone will have different needs, wants, and budget. I am arguing the merits of a dog over a camera for rural property security priorities, yes.
Yes, and cameras have been suggested as a priority part of the toolset.
That is not to say that anyone believes that a camera is likely to stop a home invader.
Just tells you what's out there.
Jeb Stuart
member
When I was in the business, we had calls all the time for folks that had vendettas against their neighbors. Some believed their neighbors would vandalize their property etc. And of course we would set them up. At the time is was costly. But yes, many cases they were actually victims. You bring up a good point about Game Cams. I have always wondered when someone would pick up the fact that they can be used for other purposes. A low cost surveillance.
Stevie-Ray
Member
First, I'm pretty lucky in that my area is very low crime. Still, I keep my doors locked at all times, and answer them gun-in-hand, for the few times I need to. I have automatic security lights that light up my whole yard all the way to the woods. I carry at all times, and if in my jammies, just carry the gun from room to room and sit it next to me. It's no trouble at all. My cats will alert me, if there is something that warrants investigation, while in bed. Do I feel secure? Not perfectly, of course, so I'm also investigating security systems, like the latest from Simplisafe. Most people up here would likely call me crazy, but being from Detroit seems to never go away. 6 years now.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Come on. You do this thread an injustice when you don't treat home defense, or any defense, as a layered, holistic concept.
Old Dog
Member
Our local standard Grade A junky could throw a couple of drug-laced medium rare dry-aged Angus ribeyes over my fence and my Belgian and GS dogs would be far more concerned with taking bites out of his butt than the steaks. Which is why it's good to have dogs with some professional training. No, my dogs can't call the cops -- but my security company will do so as soon as the alarm system is triggered.
Like the Chief says, home defense is best accomplished as a layered system.
this thread is very confusing. despite starting with the assertion that mindset > skillset > toolset, we seem to be debating toolset, saying tools beat mindset, and implying you don't have time to get to a gun when someone bursts into your home, but you do have time to get to your camera.
personally, i'll take mindset over skillset over toolset any day.
i have an alarm system, lights, etc, but i don't trust them any more than i trust the mechanical safety on a firearm. they're just tools. as are guns and dogs, which i also have.
cameras are nice after the fact, but judging by the number of youtube videos, they certainly aren't a deterrent, and i'm not really aware of many instances of them being an early alert system, excepting movies. i have friends with more elaborate camera systems that send pic texts to their phones all day long. but in the context of a home invasion where you don't even have time to go to your bedroom to retrieve your rifle, taking the time to open your phone and view images seems sketchy.
the hackability is very valid point. you are far, far, far more likely to be hacked (and have someone else watching your camera feeds) than to have your home invaded.
it's not clear to me why anyone (Jeb) would poo poo skillsets. IDPA may not be real life, and personally i much prefer USPSA, but it's a really low bar. It's really not clear what is being argued here. are you saying there's little or no value in competent use of a firearm? or that there is a trade off and somehow picking a home security system means you can't also practice with your firearm? you certainly seem to be saying toolset > skillset
personally, i'll take mindset over skillset over toolset any day.
i have an alarm system, lights, etc, but i don't trust them any more than i trust the mechanical safety on a firearm. they're just tools. as are guns and dogs, which i also have.
cameras are nice after the fact, but judging by the number of youtube videos, they certainly aren't a deterrent, and i'm not really aware of many instances of them being an early alert system, excepting movies. i have friends with more elaborate camera systems that send pic texts to their phones all day long. but in the context of a home invasion where you don't even have time to go to your bedroom to retrieve your rifle, taking the time to open your phone and view images seems sketchy.
the hackability is very valid point. you are far, far, far more likely to be hacked (and have someone else watching your camera feeds) than to have your home invaded.
it's not clear to me why anyone (Jeb) would poo poo skillsets. IDPA may not be real life, and personally i much prefer USPSA, but it's a really low bar. It's really not clear what is being argued here. are you saying there's little or no value in competent use of a firearm? or that there is a trade off and somehow picking a home security system means you can't also practice with your firearm? you certainly seem to be saying toolset > skillset
Old Dog
Member
I'm assuming that the OP is talking about home defense in the context that one is actually inside the home when bad people come calling.
As I noted in an earlier post, the firearm is one's last resort. In that case, if one has to fall back on the use of firearms, obviously, it behooves one to have trained in the use of his/her tool(s) of choice.
I continue to be amazed by those -- including many on this forum -- who always bring up accounts of citizens who've successfully defended themselves in their homes yet have never had a firearms training. So frickin' what?
Why wouldn't one avail himself/herself of the best training one could afford (and not just going to the range a couple times a year and shooting holes in paper targets while standing in a lane with your guns on a shelf in front of you). It may not happen to you, but at some point, a skillset might give one the edge.
So yeah, after mindset, the skillset (for me anyway) is more important than the toolset.
As I noted in an earlier post, the firearm is one's last resort. In that case, if one has to fall back on the use of firearms, obviously, it behooves one to have trained in the use of his/her tool(s) of choice.
I continue to be amazed by those -- including many on this forum -- who always bring up accounts of citizens who've successfully defended themselves in their homes yet have never had a firearms training. So frickin' what?
Why wouldn't one avail himself/herself of the best training one could afford (and not just going to the range a couple times a year and shooting holes in paper targets while standing in a lane with your guns on a shelf in front of you). It may not happen to you, but at some point, a skillset might give one the edge.
So yeah, after mindset, the skillset (for me anyway) is more important than the toolset.
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old lady new shooter
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In my previous house I used to carry my 686 around in what was designed to be an under-the-desk holster inside a smallish but very sturdy canvas bag. A makeshift gun purse if you will. Sitting at my table (my usual location because the table doubled as my workspace) the bag was hung over the arm of my chair, in the kitchen hung from a knob on a drawer, in the bathroom hung over the doorknob, etc. At night it was in a bed holster, the kind with a flat part that goes between the box spring and mattress, with the actual holster hanging down. Worked very well regardless of what I was wearing.
Jeb Stuart
member
Most burglaries are looking for easy targets.
Lol, Man I am so glad I am retired from the business.
beeenbag
Member
A security system will do you no good if a home invasion happens and the alarm does not deter the intruder.
having the most amazing firearm will not do you any good if you can not hit with it.
being a dead eye shot with your amazing firearm while your alarm is blasting wide open, will not do you any good if you do not have the mindset to potentially take another life in defense of your own.
mindset, skill set, then tool set. In that order.
edit to add: I have a large dog, monitored security, hardened entry points and train regularly as well as shoot uspsa. In no way do I condone non layered defenses.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Here's mindset in perspective with skillset and toolset.
With respect to the home invasion example being talked about, mindset is realizing you have a kitchen full of cutlery and heavy pots and pans, a garage full of all kinds of sharp tools and blunt weapons, a livingroom floor layered in Lego Landmines, the kids' baseball bat laying on the couch where it was tossed after practice, heavy ceramic nativity pieces sitting on the fireplace mantle for Christmas, an ecstatic Pug who absolutely insists on getting tangled up in the feet of whomever walks through the front door, your cutlass you got for retiring from the Navy next to your other retirement items, you're son's impressive knife collection in his bedroom, a stack of Ski soda in a corner of the dining room that you stocked up on at the kids' insistence the last time you went to the family reunion in Kentucky.
And that's just the part of the mindset dealing with the toolset that can be utilized for a violent defense.
How about the mindset which realizes you need to trim back the bushes close to the house, make sure your exterior lighting is adequate and operating, the vehicles and house is appropriately locked as required, decent locking mechanisms on your doors, hinges and lockplates properly screwed deeply into the door framing, family taught (and practicing) basic tactics like "see who's at the door before you open it", being "neighborly" which tends to increase awareness of goings on which are out of the ordinary, being mindful of how you may be advertising your valuables to the world at large (like new TV boxes out with the trash, etc).
Mindset is making intelligent decisions which place you in a safer posture, helps to avoid violent encounters, and helps you survive them when they're unavoidable. It's recognizing that MAYBE walking home at 2am through areas of town you KNOW you really ought not be in is a really stupid idea. It's recognizing that MAYBE stopping for gas at THAT location at THAT time while THAT activity is occurring might be a set up for something you don't want to be involved in. It's realizing that not everybody you may know are appropriate people to be associating with sometimes.
Mindset is all this and more.
This is a firearms forum, so it makes sense that the vast majority of people on this site are because of firearms...hunting, personal protection, sports, laws, whatever.
But firearms aren't the be-all and end-all. In fact, it's simply one tool among many (que "A gun is just a tool" from Shane).
Most people have more tools in their personal toolbox than they realize. And while tools are typically designed with a particular use, they may often be adapted to fit certain other needs when necessary. Just speaking of the tools in the toolbox in your garage, how many people here have NOT used a screwdriver to open a can of paint or scrap rust or paint off something? How many people here have NOT used a crescent wrench to wack something that needed wacking when you didn't have a hammer or were too lazy to go get it? How many people here have NEVER used a shovel to hack and cut through tree roots while they were digging?
The tools in your toolbox also includes your education, your experiences, your training...your whole life experience, in fact.
What all the tools you have in your toolbox may do is really only limited by your imagination...and mindset.
THAT is mindset and THAT is why mindset ranks above skillset and toolset.
With respect to the home invasion example being talked about, mindset is realizing you have a kitchen full of cutlery and heavy pots and pans, a garage full of all kinds of sharp tools and blunt weapons, a livingroom floor layered in Lego Landmines, the kids' baseball bat laying on the couch where it was tossed after practice, heavy ceramic nativity pieces sitting on the fireplace mantle for Christmas, an ecstatic Pug who absolutely insists on getting tangled up in the feet of whomever walks through the front door, your cutlass you got for retiring from the Navy next to your other retirement items, you're son's impressive knife collection in his bedroom, a stack of Ski soda in a corner of the dining room that you stocked up on at the kids' insistence the last time you went to the family reunion in Kentucky.
And that's just the part of the mindset dealing with the toolset that can be utilized for a violent defense.
How about the mindset which realizes you need to trim back the bushes close to the house, make sure your exterior lighting is adequate and operating, the vehicles and house is appropriately locked as required, decent locking mechanisms on your doors, hinges and lockplates properly screwed deeply into the door framing, family taught (and practicing) basic tactics like "see who's at the door before you open it", being "neighborly" which tends to increase awareness of goings on which are out of the ordinary, being mindful of how you may be advertising your valuables to the world at large (like new TV boxes out with the trash, etc).
Mindset is making intelligent decisions which place you in a safer posture, helps to avoid violent encounters, and helps you survive them when they're unavoidable. It's recognizing that MAYBE walking home at 2am through areas of town you KNOW you really ought not be in is a really stupid idea. It's recognizing that MAYBE stopping for gas at THAT location at THAT time while THAT activity is occurring might be a set up for something you don't want to be involved in. It's realizing that not everybody you may know are appropriate people to be associating with sometimes.
Mindset is all this and more.
This is a firearms forum, so it makes sense that the vast majority of people on this site are because of firearms...hunting, personal protection, sports, laws, whatever.
But firearms aren't the be-all and end-all. In fact, it's simply one tool among many (que "A gun is just a tool" from Shane).
Most people have more tools in their personal toolbox than they realize. And while tools are typically designed with a particular use, they may often be adapted to fit certain other needs when necessary. Just speaking of the tools in the toolbox in your garage, how many people here have NOT used a screwdriver to open a can of paint or scrap rust or paint off something? How many people here have NOT used a crescent wrench to wack something that needed wacking when you didn't have a hammer or were too lazy to go get it? How many people here have NEVER used a shovel to hack and cut through tree roots while they were digging?
The tools in your toolbox also includes your education, your experiences, your training...your whole life experience, in fact.
What all the tools you have in your toolbox may do is really only limited by your imagination...and mindset.
THAT is mindset and THAT is why mindset ranks above skillset and toolset.
Obturation
Member
Mindset is certainly #1. An opponent can not (or likely wont) defeat someone who refuses to be defeated. When failure is not an option and you are all that stands between evil and your loved ones. I have a brother 3 years older than me and considerably bigger but by the time i was 6 he knew not to be too hard on me because i was way tougher mentally, i had be and i still am.
The best way to keep safe is to make sure everyone is an easier target than you. You don't need to be aggressive, act tough or tell others what will happen if they threaten your peace. just be mentally ready to be 10 times the man who would challenge you.
Yes, i keep a defense tool with overwhelming power near my bed . A 110 lb german shepherd on my main floor. Cameras at my entrances. Motion lights on my yard. Locked doors and windows. But all of these things combined do not make my family safe. The weapon they call daddy does and i would doubt the most dedicated bad guy doesn't have a fraction of the fortitude in their entire body that i have in my pinky toe otherwise they would do the right thing instead of terrorizing good people. Mindset is #1, it is your greatest weapon.
The best way to keep safe is to make sure everyone is an easier target than you. You don't need to be aggressive, act tough or tell others what will happen if they threaten your peace. just be mentally ready to be 10 times the man who would challenge you.
Yes, i keep a defense tool with overwhelming power near my bed . A 110 lb german shepherd on my main floor. Cameras at my entrances. Motion lights on my yard. Locked doors and windows. But all of these things combined do not make my family safe. The weapon they call daddy does and i would doubt the most dedicated bad guy doesn't have a fraction of the fortitude in their entire body that i have in my pinky toe otherwise they would do the right thing instead of terrorizing good people. Mindset is #1, it is your greatest weapon.
Jeb Stuart
member
Yes, Mindset was one of the biggest and most important subjects I presented to every single customer both in Residential, Industrial and Commercial applications. In fact it was ALWAYS one of the biggest topics presented. And Yes, I totally believe in layered security and never once said I did not. In fact, my layered security is quite intensive. And I also believe in training with a firearm and knowing how to use one. I train very often and I spend a lot of money in training, practice etc. And I wish every one could do the same. I also know reality. And reality is that many folks cannot train with a firearm. I know there are many folks that cannot own a dog, I know many that cannot have trained Guard dogs. I know there are needed extra layered protection but not everyone can even afford those.
But for those folks, you can bet your sweet A(( that I would always talk about mindset. Even from the basics in a Home Security System. And I emphasize that.I did not Poo Poo IDPA, what I said was it is not realistic for everyone.
Examples of Basics. Alarm the system during the day, even WHEN HOME. Have a plan if the alarm goes off, Do not leave garage door open during the day even on weekends, keep alert to any strange cars or people in the Neighborhood. Be part of a Block watch if possible, NEVER OPEN A DOOR FOR ANY ONE YOU DO NOT KNOW. Ask for credentials from a tradesmen s, keep your bushes cut, use your key fob from the Security company every time you walk to your car. Keep alert at all times.
My 90 year old Mother is active and alert. She HAS a layerd security in her house and knows how to use it. I am sorry that she cannot handle a shotgun, AR, or any firearm and she will not try. And regardless of whether I agree with some folks, they do not like guns in the House and and they do not like guns period.
These forums go into the absurd. Even if a firearm is advocated, of course you will have 10 people saying you made the wrong choice. You will now have a caliber war. Or a choice of firearm war, or a trainingg war. Regardless of all the opinions, every application for security was treated on a Individual basis, custom designed for the customer. If you had 18 trained attack guard dogs than of COURSE that would be taken into consideration. And if you lived in the Country, had one dog and a budget then fine. If we could tailor a security system to include the dog as a alarm, which they are great at doing then fine. If not, have a plan if the dog does go into alarm.
And just like a firearm, one size does not fit all.
And of course if you do not believe in good Home security system, lighting, CCTV, Intercoms and on and on, then that is fine as well. If you believe in having 50.cal mounted on your roof in a observation tower then great.
Personally,and like I said. I am so glad I am not in the business any longer. Other than my own family and myself, I could care less what others do for security.
***One note-- the Schools in our area have the worst security designs I have ever seen. A total joke, a embarrassment. And yet the School board and the city, will fill the air with how great it is and how well the students are protected. Amazing how they can lie to such a degree. And of course this is the City that believes No Gun Zones are a good thing.(even more so after a mass shooting in a No gun Zone.) Talk about lack of mindset. Sorry, but you cannot fix stupid no matter what is available.
But for those folks, you can bet your sweet A(( that I would always talk about mindset. Even from the basics in a Home Security System. And I emphasize that.I did not Poo Poo IDPA, what I said was it is not realistic for everyone.
Examples of Basics. Alarm the system during the day, even WHEN HOME. Have a plan if the alarm goes off, Do not leave garage door open during the day even on weekends, keep alert to any strange cars or people in the Neighborhood. Be part of a Block watch if possible, NEVER OPEN A DOOR FOR ANY ONE YOU DO NOT KNOW. Ask for credentials from a tradesmen s, keep your bushes cut, use your key fob from the Security company every time you walk to your car. Keep alert at all times.
My 90 year old Mother is active and alert. She HAS a layerd security in her house and knows how to use it. I am sorry that she cannot handle a shotgun, AR, or any firearm and she will not try. And regardless of whether I agree with some folks, they do not like guns in the House and and they do not like guns period.
These forums go into the absurd. Even if a firearm is advocated, of course you will have 10 people saying you made the wrong choice. You will now have a caliber war. Or a choice of firearm war, or a trainingg war. Regardless of all the opinions, every application for security was treated on a Individual basis, custom designed for the customer. If you had 18 trained attack guard dogs than of COURSE that would be taken into consideration. And if you lived in the Country, had one dog and a budget then fine. If we could tailor a security system to include the dog as a alarm, which they are great at doing then fine. If not, have a plan if the dog does go into alarm.
And just like a firearm, one size does not fit all.
And of course if you do not believe in good Home security system, lighting, CCTV, Intercoms and on and on, then that is fine as well. If you believe in having 50.cal mounted on your roof in a observation tower then great.
Personally,and like I said. I am so glad I am not in the business any longer. Other than my own family and myself, I could care less what others do for security.
***One note-- the Schools in our area have the worst security designs I have ever seen. A total joke, a embarrassment. And yet the School board and the city, will fill the air with how great it is and how well the students are protected. Amazing how they can lie to such a degree. And of course this is the City that believes No Gun Zones are a good thing.(even more so after a mass shooting in a No gun Zone.) Talk about lack of mindset. Sorry, but you cannot fix stupid no matter what is available.
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