9mm +P+?

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Confederate

Confederate

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I just found a bag with some boxes of .45ACP and 9mm marked +P+. It's several years old and I can't remember even buying it. My question is this: I've got a couple of S&W 659s, a 5906, and a 645 autos. Oh, and a 3906 and a 6906 (with an aluminum frame). Can I safely fire this ammo in my guns or do I need stiffer springs?

These steel guns seem very durable and stout. What guns were made for this ammo? And what's the advantage of having such ammo? Would it make the .45ACP more suitable for bear? I also have a Sig Saur P220 .45 and a Taurus PT92 AR stainless steel 9mm and a Browning Hi-Power. Would these guns be able to shoot +P+?

Thanks!

Browning-Hi-Power-003x.jpg

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+P+ has no real definition other than higher pressure than +P. How much higher is anyone's guess.
Are these factory loaded? Like Buffalo Bore or other boutique ammunition manufacturer? Or are these Billy Bob's hand loads?
That said, S&W 645 & 4506 & steel framed varients of them are the only .45 semi auto pistols safe for use with .45 Super without modification. So that would be my choice IF I were going to shoot that ammo.
Sig P226 has never been made in .45. The P220 & P227 are the comparable models available in .45.
 
If they are from a known loader with a good reputation I'd assume they are fine in any gun in good working order.
If they are billy bob's handloads I'd probably chuck them.
Most guns are tougher than we give them credit for and a few overpressure rounds (within reason) are not going to do any real damage, but anything advertised as a max load or more, I'd want to be comfortable with the loader, whether it was me or a well-known boutique.
 
“Made for” this ammo? Maybe the HK mark 23 or some subguns?

it’s unwise to speculate whether it will be safe in your pistols. If it’s factory ammo from known reputable makers then probably okay IMO, but I’d keep it to limited use and I wouldn’t shoot it through a BHP, personally.

if it’s no-name? Pull it and reload the components, or shoot it through whichever gun you care about the least using your non-dominant hand... ;)
 
I would not use +P+ in a Hi-Power. The Hi-Power did not do well when they started chambering it in .40. It's not likely to be unsafe as such, but the wear on things like lug mating surfaces may be disproportionately high.

But, as others have noted, +P+ just means that it's off the map... not how far it is off the map.
 
I'm sure those steel framed S&Ws can handle them. It seems reasonable to put a new, couple pounds stronger than factory recoil spring on the S&Ws you decide to use. I wouldn't use them on aluminium framed guns and certainly not in a nice BHP.
 
I have never heard of .45acp +P+. I have shot +P+ through my high power with zero ill effects. I would not shoot it every day, but to insure function and carry, why not?
 
As said, there are no real limits for anything marked +P+ and I for one would not shoot it in any of my handguns. There is just no way of knowing what levels of pressure I would be exposing my gun to.

SAAMI and CIP exist to protect us and to insure all the specs are the same from different manufacturers. It's always a risk when you fire ammo of an unknown pressure, it could be safe or it could break your gun or worse, hurt you.
 
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No SAAMI pressure definition for +p+ ammo. Sounds like you have some nice older S&W products. Remember that parts could be difficult to locate.
 
Lucky Derby said:
That said, S&W 645 & 4506 & steel framed varients of them are the only .45 semi auto pistols safe for use with .45 Super without modification. So that would be my choice IF I were going to shoot that ammo. Sig P226 has never been made in .45. The P220 & P227 are the comparable models available in .45.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice and the correction. Yes, it was a Sig P220 with the magazine release at the bottom. Fortunately, the pistol came with three magazines, so I don't have to find extras. It's a great gun, but I'm not a huge .45acp fan. The 645 is a great gun and is amazingly reliable. (Makes me wonder why Colt couldn't make the 1911 that reliable when it was in production.)

ny32182 said:
If they are from a known loader with a good reputation I'd assume they are fine in any gun in good working order.
If they are billy bob's handloads I'd probably chuck them.
Most guns are tougher than we give them credit for and a few overpressure rounds (within reason) are not going to do any real damage, but anything advertised as a max load or more, I'd want to be comfortable with the loader, whether it was me or a well-known boutique.
Click to expand...
No, they're made by Winchester, I think. I've got them stashed away or I'd go check. I don't shoot much these days, but even if I did, I wouldn't shoot the hot stuff; however, I wonder why it was made and what people use it for. It's not something one sees for sale. I can't even recall where I got it.
 
Winchester loads some of their law enforcement ammo as +P+, a 115 and a 127 grain in 9mm. They load a 230 grain 45 round as +P. I don't know anything about their +P+ 45 ammo.
 
I've got some Gold Dot +p+ that I bought years ago. I think it's advertised at 1300 fps but that may be inflated. It's shot fine through my M&P pistols but I only bought one box and it's still half full so obviously I don't shoot a lot of the stuff. I doubt it performs materially better than standard pressure or +p ammo.
 
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For carry loads I shoot a federal +P+ 115 grain white jacketed hollow point. I fire it in my glocks and an sigma Smith and Wesson. Last thing I shot with it was a yearling water moccasin in the evening almost a month ago. I could not clearly see its head with my aging eyes and blending background so did body shots on and the bullets really tore it up. Snake is still very much a live with the neck half severed that the picture is not showing, but its spine is broken.

upload_2019-11-21_15-52-26.png
 
Personally, I would not shoot +P+ out of one of my Hi-Powers. I would shoot it, sparingly, out of my Glocks, and I would shoot it, without reservation, in my Ruger PCC and AR-9 with heavy buffer.
 
Here's the current WinchesterLE.com webpage for its 9mm+P+ ammo. I only saw one version, currently, but do double-check me as it's entirely possible I missed other +P+ offerings (in 9mm or 45ACP).
http://winchesterle.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9TA.aspx

This also doesn't mean the OP's ammo was loaded the same as Winchester is currently loading its "RA9TA" offering.

During my brief internet searching, I came across a 2002 "TFL" thread where folks also couldn't find any 45ACP+P+ ammo in existence. Can someone post a photo of a 45ACP casing stamped with a "+P+" marking? I can't recall ever seeing one (not that my memory is that good).
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127123
 
Some data for actual velocities of various 9mm loads including plus p plus.
 

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In my opinion if it's a mainstream load like Winchester or Federal the +P+ is really more like a +P that pushes the limit (IE I get the same velocities our 9BPLE and Ranger T I get out of Boutique Brand +P ). 1300 fps + with a 115 grain or 1250 fps with a 124 grain out of a Beretta 92.

Boutique Brand +P+ is a whole different kettle of fish. 1400 fps + with a 124 grain like a .357 Sig. I wouldn't shoot it out of my guns.
 
L-2 said:
Here's the current WinchesterLE.com webpage for its 9mm+P+ ammo. I only saw one version, currently, but do double-check me as it's entirely possible I missed other +P+ offerings (in 9mm or 45ACP).
http://winchesterle.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9TA.aspx

This also doesn't mean the OP's ammo was loaded the same as Winchester is currently loading its "RA9TA" offering.

During my brief internet searching, I came across a 2002 "TFL" thread where folks also couldn't find any 45ACP+P+ ammo in existence. Can someone post a photo of a 45ACP casing stamped with a "+P+" marking? I can't recall ever seeing one (not that my memory is that good).
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127123
Click to expand...

+P is 23,000 psi
.45 Super is 28,000 psi.

I suspect anything over 23,000 psi would be marked .45 Super instead of +P+.
 
If 20000 is maximum standard pressure, 20001 is +P (if it could be measured that close.)
If 23000 is maximum +P, then 23001 is +P+.
So is 28000.
Unless you are the government purchasing agent, you don't know.

Norma got hung up on that. They advertised ".38 Special Magnum" at high velocity but standard pressure due to secret sauce powder. But when production ammo was tested, it was just over into +P and they had to change the label.
 
I've never encountered any .45 ACP +P+, so can't comment on that. But I have used my share of Federal and Winchester 9MM +P+ and just a little Remington +P+. I've used the 9MM +P+ in a variety of pistols and revolvers without incident. I've long believed the barrel cam in the Hi Power frames to be the gun's Achilles heel. For that reason, I prefer not to use the +P+ in the Hi Power. Replacing the barrel cam is not easy or inexpensive.

That being said, I've used 9MM +P+ in SIG, S&W, Glock, HK,etc. pistols, and S&W and Ruger revolvers. Nothing thus far has bent, broken,deformed, crumbled or worn excessively from what I can tell. FWIW, some of the "Boutique" 9MM ammo rated as "only" +P produces velocities higher than the major manufacturer +P+ ammo I've used.
 
Jim Watson said:
If 20000 is maximum standard pressure, 20001 is +P (if it could be measured that close.)
If 23000 is maximum +P, then 23001 is +P+.
So is 28000.
Click to expand...

If your referring to my post above. .45 Super has the same external dimensions as .45 ACP. I just theorized that a manufacturer might mark "23001-28000 psi" ammo as Super instead of +P+ since the standard already exist. After all I've never seen a case marked .38 ACP +P (.38 Super is essentially the +P version). I know some of the Boutique Manufacturers use .45 ACP +P+ to designate rounds above 23,000 psi but weaker than their .45 Super.
 
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Rock185 said:
I've never encountered any .45 ACP +P+, so can't comment on that. But I have used my share of Federal and Winchester 9MM +P+ and just a little Remington +P+. I've used the 9MM +P+ in a variety of pistols and revolvers without incident. I've long believed the barrel cam in the Hi Power frames to be the gun's Achilles heel. For that reason, I prefer not to use the +P+ in the Hi Power. Replacing the barrel cam is not easy or inexpensive.

That being said, I've used 9MM +P+ in SIG, S&W, Glock, HK,etc. pistols, and S&W and Ruger revolvers. Nothing thus far has bent, broken,deformed, crumbled or worn excessively from what I can tell. FWIW, some of the "Boutique" 9MM ammo rated as "only" +P produces velocities higher than the major manufacturer +P+ ammo I've used.
Click to expand...
What I have been told by some LEOs that shoot a lot of +P+ 9x19 is do the routine replacement of recoil springs and such when shooting a lot of the +P+.
Relative to the .45 super and such I would go 10mm glock. It is the easy button and it should do anything a .45 super will do, if not more for a lot less money.
 
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