10mm the equivalent of the 41 - sheer BUFFOONERY

RealGun said:

I am not one to allow that moonclips redefine the revolver. The 41 Mag/Spl is a real revolver round.

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I have a soft spot in my heart for moonclip fed revolvers chambered in auto cartridges. Its not a new thing a small percentage of discerning revolver shooters have been using moonclips in one form or another for over 100 years starting with the S&W and Colt 1917 Revolvers (possibly earlier). Jerry Miculek no doubt is nearly single-handedly responsible for the mini-revival of the (full) moonclip in the 1990's with his world records and domination of the revolver divisions of USPSA/IPSC and IDPA.

Moonclips are all about reload speed in a revolver. A technology/idea that did not reach its full maturity until way too late to save revolvers from being eclipse by semi-autos for self-defense/LEO type application. They work best with short fat cartridges not long skinny magnum cartridges. Moonclips are for the underdogs that like to try to show the noble round gun can still hold its own against the filthy bottom feeders in the on going battle against the hordes of cardboard silhouettes, pepper popper, and the dreaded Texas-star!

Moonclips are also pretty useful for demonstrating to those amenable to gun control that even the banning of all semi-automatic firearms and/or detachable box magazines would not prevent rapid reloads by persons intent on shooting a lot of rounds quickly.

mcb said:

I have a soft spot in my heart for moonclip fed revolvers chambered in auto cartridges. Its not a new thing a small percentage of discerning revolver shooters have been using moonclips in one form or another for over 100 years starting with the S&W and Colt 1917 Revolvers (possibly earlier). Jerry Miculek no doubt is nearly single-handedly responsible for the mini-revival of the (full) moonclip in the 1990's with his world records and domination of the revolver divisions of USPSA/IPSC and IDPA.

Moonclips are all about reload speed in a revolver. A technology/idea that did not reach its full maturity until way too late to save revolvers from being eclipse by semi-autos for self-defense/LEO type application. They work best with short fat cartridges not long skinny magnum cartridges. Moonclips are for the underdogs that like to try to show the noble round gun can still hold its own against the filthy bottom feeders in the on going battle against the hordes of cardboard silhouettes, pepper popper, and the dreaded Texas-star!

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I do actually have a 625PC, but I think it's use is directly related to the convenience of 45 ACP. I guess I would also be of the mind that race guns don't redefine the revolver. I feel more comfortable with the idea that they have origins as military or law enforcement guns plus a few for cartridges that allow revolvers to be used for a range of hunting. The moonclip guns are at the fringe, not the center. My 625 PC is sidelined with light strikes, so my enthusiasm is a little light at the moment.

RealGun said:

I do actually have a 625PC, but I think it's use is directly related to the convenience of 45 ACP. I guess I would also be of the mind that race guns don't redefine the revolver. I feel more comfortable with the idea that they have origins as military or law enforcement guns plus a few for cartridges that allow revolvers to be used for a range of hunting. The moonclip guns are at the fringe, not the center. My 625 PC is sidelined with light strikes, so my enthusiasm is a little light at the moment.

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I carry, compete, and hunt with moonclip fed revolvers. The 625 is the most fun revolver I own. I don't think there is a faster reloading revolver going. Miculek set his world record 6-shots, reload, 6-shots in 2.99 seconds with it.

No doubt the moonclip fed revolver is a fringe feature in the greater revolver world but I would argue there are more moonclip feed revolvers out there than 41 Mag revolvers. Though a few of those moonclip fed revolvers are no doubt 41 Mag revolvers cut for moonclips.

I'm sure this data would be nigh impossible to get but I wonder if there are more 10mm Revolvers than 41 Mag revolvers out there? Both S&W and Ruger are making 10mm revolvers. Currently Ruger offer 6 different models in 10mm Auto and only 5 in 41 Mag. S&W offers two in 10mm Auto and only one in 41 Mag.

I never get tired of watching Miculek set that record. Amazing.

Well I have read much of this thread and taken it to heart , but then I had to deal out the bad news.

I went into my gun room and first addressed my 10mm guns, a Smith 1006, a 610, a Glock 20, and a CMMG Banshee. I said "I've been on THR and they say you guys will never measure up to the .41s next to you."

They were beside themselves.

Then I addressed my .41s, a Smith 657, an Astra snub nose, and a Marlin lever action and said, "THR says you guys are extinct and can't be fed any more." Their reaction was a little like the "bring out your dead" scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

"I'm really feeling much better,..."

Koroner said:

Then I addressed my .41s, a Smith 657, an Astra snub nose, and a Marlin lever action and said, "THR says you guys are extinct and can't be fed any more."

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But on the upside you've also learned that you are a classy and sophisticated guy with discerning taste that makes you better than other revolver shooters, purely because you own 41 magnums.

460Shooter said:

But on the upside you've also learned that you are a classy and sophisticated guy with discerning taste that makes you better than other revolver shooters, purely because you own 41 magnums.

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Hahahahaha!

jski said:

Flv3r, I went to a large BassPro down here in Florida a few months back and was amazed to see but ONE glass case with any revolvers in it. There were a few 357s + 38s and some 22s ... that’s it! The younger generation all want to be John Wick. They consider a revolver to be some kind of horse pistol from a bygone era. If they can’t pump out 19 rounds without reloading, it’s obsolete. From their point of view , the 44 is as obscure as the 41.

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Right after Lethal Weapon came out I had occasion to be sighting in a new (to me) revolver purchase. I have an old spotting scope from my days of shooting at outdoor ranges and used it to check my groups.

Meanwhile, down the other end of the range there were two guys with Berettas blasting away at one silhouette target. The guy up front must have been happy selling them ammo 'cause they were sure going through it. I finally swiveled my scope to peek at their target and there were only a few in the black and zero in the kill 5 zone.

It doesn't matter if you can blast 19 rounds without reloading or 91, if you aren't hitting your target you're wasting lead.

Koroner said:

I never get tired of watching Miculek

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I'm good right there.
Freaking guy shot a grape!!

jski said:

One other thing, have you notice every one and his brother and sister have collectively concluded there’s but a single pistol cartridge that’s worthy of consideration? One cartridge to rule them all and none is its equal: the king of lead, the 9mm. If you happen to be hunting grizzlies in Alaska, the 10mm may be defensible, maybe.

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Not in my circle - hahahahaha!

ATLDave said:

Moonclips are also pretty useful for demonstrating to those amenable to gun control that even the banning of all semi-automatic firearms and/or detachable box magazines would not prevent rapid reloads by persons intent on shooting a lot of rounds quickly.

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No offense there ATLDave, but gun control "activists" want to ban all guns, even muzzleloaders and black power wheelguns that aren't even "legally" considered firearms.

As a .41 Mag owner, it's a damn fine round. As a 6" .45 Super owner, it, too is a damn fine round. So is the 10mm when properly loaded. Comparisons of .41 and 10mm? Apples and oranges.

Now, the other thing that's rather ironic is the fact that the "popularity" of the 10mm is being touted. It's a very recent thing. I can recall years and years and years of "Huh? You want a ten what?" when anyone asked about ammo or guns in 10mm in just about any gun store you went to, anywhere in the US. To say it was almost extinct sans maaaaybe a hen's tooth new Delta Elite or a EAA Witness, or a decommissioned S&W 1076 pistol in a gun counter cabinet is the truth...and hopefully that store still had a few dusty 20-round boxes of the wood-grain print Norma 200 gr JHP ammo to load into it on the shelves rather than the pathetic Federal "FBI Lite" load that ultimately spawned the .40 S&W and doomed the 10mm further into obscurity. Even the Smith 610 revolvers were uber rare and faded away, while the Glock was available but never seemed too popular. Now the round has had a renaissance, which is a good thing. The 10mm never deserved to fade almost to oblivion, and hopefully it's here to stay.

Will the .41 have a similar renaissance? No. Revolvers are just not as popular anymore, and unless semis are banned in some draconian Dem takeover of DC then revolvers probably won't gain too much more of the market share than they have now... and the .41 will stay a niche round catered to by us who know how good it is and won't let it die.

Stay safe.

silvermane_1 said:

No offense there ATLDave, but gun control "activists" want to ban all guns, even muzzleloaders and black power wheelguns that aren't even "legally" considered firearms.

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That’s why I said “those amenable to gun control,” not gun control activists. I’m talking about regular folks who aren’t very familiar with guns and have only the misconceptions fed to them by the media.

jski said:

I’ve read some who advocate the Glock 19 as a carry gun in grizzly country. Their principle thesis is that quantity is more important than quality. Or as the Russians say: “quantity has as a quality all of its own”.

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Those are the same folks who think they’re going to rattle off multiple shots in an attack situation. Ignorance is bliss - LOL!

Yeah,... right! A Glock 9mm is just the thing to piss off griz.

I've heard that there are signs put up in brown bear country that advise people to wear bells so that they don't surprise the bears.
They are also advised to be able to distinguish the scat of black bears from those of the brown.
(The brown bear's scat sometimes has bells in it.)

Koroner said:

Yeah,... right! A Glock 9mm is just the thing to piss off griz.

I've heard that there are signs put up in brown bear country that advise people to wear bells so that they don't surprise the bears.
They are also advised to be able to distinguish the scat of black bears from those of the brown.
(The brown bear's scat sometimes has bells in it.)

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https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

I am not saying the the 9mm is the best choice or even a good choice but they are just bears, flesh and blood, not some demon possessed up-armored were-bear.

Regular grizzly bear:


Bear as imagined by internet handgun discussion boards (except the were-bear would have an armored helmet on too):

mcb said:

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

I am not saying the the 9mm is the best choice or even a good choice but they are just bears, flesh and blood, not some demon possessed up-armored were-bear.

Regular grizzly bear:
View attachment 876419

Bear as imagined by internet handgun discussion boards (except the were-bear would have an armored helmet on too):
View attachment 876420

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Phil shot it running towards his client from the side. I doubt the results would have been as decisive if the bear had come for him.

Phil shot it running towards his client from the side. I doubt the results would have been as decisive if the bear had come for him.

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The 147 gr 9mm hardcast bullets have penetrated 5'+ in gel. Farther than any bullet tested including the big bores. They only had 5' worth of gel and the 9mm load was the only one they didn't catch. Shoemaker has been guiding brown bear hunters for nearly 50 years and has done extensive testing of loads to determine how much penetration is needed to kill one. He didn't just pick the 9mm on a whim. He had already done extensive testing of that specific load and was confident that it was up to the job.

As to 10mm vs 357, 41, and 44 mag. It's all about barrel length, or better yet overall length of the gun. All the published ballistics you see on magnum revolver rounds are from 7.5"-8.5" barrels. All of the semi-auto ballistics are from 4.5"-5" barrels and are much more realistic to what you'll see in the real world. No one would be surprised to see 300 WM velocities to be way off from 12" barrels, but guys expect the magnum revolver rounds to match published speeds with a barrel 1/2 the length the loads were tested in.

And then you have to consider overall size. My 4.5" Glock 20 is an inch shorter, and a full pound lighter than my 4" magnum revolvers. Yet I can get a measured 1315 fps with 200 gr loads, my 4" G29 will get 1250. You might match that with a 6" 357 or 41 mag revolver. You sure won't beat it with a 3" 357 or 41 mag revolver and 200 gr bullets. And that is a lot closer to 44 mag performance than most realize when the 44's are fired from 4' and shorter barrels.

If someone wants to lug around an 8" barreled revolver just to say they can beat my 4" 10mm then have at it. If I'm carrying a handgun with an 8" barrel I'd just as soon carry a rifle.

I know the guy who designed that ammo quite well and know what it’s capable of, and gel ain’t flesh. That said, Phil is lucky he wasn’t the one charged as that would have changed the dynamic significantly.

This is not a criticism of Phil, as he used what he had under the circumstances and likely saved his client’s backside. Ask Phil and he’ll tell you he would rather have his .44 Mag on his hip. That day he didn’t and fortunately all ended well, but with a sane conscience, I will never consider a 9mm bear medicine. JMHO.

You don’t need an 8-inch barrel to “beat” the ballistics of a 10mm. Buffalo Bore’s 340 grain .44 Mag +p load clocks over 1,300 fps from my 4 5/8-inch BFR. I also don’t feel like cast bullets are a reliable choice for the task at hand - particularly saving my bacon.

jmr40 said:

The 147 gr 9mm hardcast bullets have penetrated 5'+ in gel. Farther than any bullet tested including the big bores. They only had 5' worth of gel and the 9mm load was the only one they didn't catch. Shoemaker has been guiding brown bear hunters for nearly 50 years and has done extensive testing of loads to determine how much penetration is needed to kill one. He didn't just pick the 9mm on a whim. He had already done extensive testing of that specific load and was confident that it was up to the job.

As to 10mm vs 357, 41, and 44 mag. It's all about barrel length, or better yet overall length of the gun. All the published ballistics you see on magnum revolver rounds are from 7.5"-8.5" barrels. All of the semi-auto ballistics are from 4.5"-5" barrels and are much more realistic to what you'll see in the real world. No one would be surprised to see 300 WM velocities to be way off from 12" barrels, but guys expect the magnum revolver rounds to match published speeds with a barrel 1/2 the length the loads were tested in.

And then you have to consider overall size. My 4.5" Glock 20 is an inch shorter, and a full pound lighter than my 4" magnum revolvers. Yet I can get a measured 1315 fps with 200 gr loads, my 4" G29 will get 1250. You might match that with a 6" 357 or 41 mag revolver. You sure won't beat it with a 3" 357 or 41 mag revolver and 200 gr bullets. And that is a lot closer to 44 mag performance than most realize when the 44's are fired from 4' and shorter barrels.

If someone wants to lug around an 8" barreled revolver just to say they can beat my 4" 10mm then have at it. If I'm carrying a handgun with an 8" barrel I'd just as soon carry a rifle.

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Didn't @murf just post a gel test the other day in the auto section? IIRC he tested the 255 hardcast 45 and 45 super loads from Underwood . The 45 acp penetrated high 50's and the super went all through 60 something inches and kept going. That's with a round nose flat point. If it was a sharper swc that a revolver uses I'm sure penetration would have been greater. 255gr @900-950fps is low teir big bore numbers

41 Mag will push a 230 gr bullet to 1370 fps from a 4-inch revolver.

44 Mag will push a 240 gr bullet to 1460 fps from a 4-inch revolver.

Real world data from commercial ammo. From similar barrel lengths 41 & 44 Mag still win over 10mm in the energy and momentum numbers.

4 inch 41 magnum data... from Lyman 50th manual...as I pointed out earlier in the thread.... the barrel length argument doesn't hold water.