Gun shops

ApacheCoTodd said:

Where's the MEGA or SUPER *Like Button*?

It's also the jackwagons wasting shop owners' time (whether directly or through employees) by reading something on the internet, going into a shop to finger-foul the inventory and then looking for better prices on the internet..... THEN, if it's a firearm, they have the temerity to bitch & moan about transfer fees.

Todd.

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They’re not jackwagons, they’re thieves. If you found a firearm online you’re considering purchasing then you don’t get to handle that firearm. Part of shopping online that makes it cheaper. But, if you go into a brick and mortar to handle that firearm with no intentions of buying there, because you’re buying the one you found online, then your stealing their time and you’re stealing from their investments in resources. If you’re using their time and resources with no intentions of buying from them then you’re a thief without honor. It’s that simple.

Nothing wrong with shopping online. Nothing wrong with shopping for the best price. Stealing someone’s time and investment in resources is just that, thievery.

Bang! said:

They’re not jackwagons, they’re thieves. If you found a firearm online you’re considering purchasing then you don’t get to handle that firearm. Part of shopping online that makes it cheaper. But, if you go into a brick and mortar to handle that firearm with no intentions of buying there, because you’re buying the one you found online, then your stealing their time and you’re stealing from their investments in resources. If you’re using their time and resources with no intentions of buying from them then you’re a thief without honor. It’s that simple.

Nothing wrong with shopping online. Nothing wrong with shopping for the best price. Stealing someone’s time and investment in resources is just that, thievery.

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It’s called “showrooming” and it’s killing companies like Best Buy as well. People go in and fondle all the displays, then go home and buy the one they like on Amazon for $3 cheaper.

There’s a little shop near me that is run by a super nice fellow. He doesn’t have anything in his stock that I can’t live without, but I’m more than happy to pay him $25 to do a Gunbroker transfer for me. That’s $25 he wouldn’t be getting from me otherwise, so I consider that a plus for him.

When I started having enough income to seriously buy guns in the late 1980’s there were 8-10 shops within 50 miles that I frequented. Only one of them is still in business today, and almost all of them had folded before Gunbroker and the rise of the Internet. One (Bud’s) is still in business in name only, and it moved 5-6 times before settling where it is now. I’m pretty sure Bud Wells has no connection to the company that bears his name. I don’t think selling guns has been a very successful long-term business except for a few individual/companies that do absolutely everything right.

All the old gun shops around here closed with owners either retired or health problems.
Now there's 3 shops that opened with new owners, I noticed they were about as friendly as a rock not 1 hello as I walked in.
I checked the prices and they were highly marked up.

The shop I go to is a big seller on GunBroker and eBay with down to earth pricing, friendly staff and we'll worth the hour drive.
They also carry reloading supplies and have a $7 background check fee compared to $30 at other shops.

Its easy to see what shops will survive and the ones that won't make it.

We have a couple of small operations here doing business on orders, transfers, and second hand.
There is a rental range/store that seems to be doing ok at higher prices because you can shoot there. They also seem to be doing a lively business in silencers.

troy fairweather said:

Internet killed gun shops.

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Nonsense. The failure to adapt to changing retail buying habits and the failure to adopt and embrace new technology is what killed many gunshops

We use a small LGS ran by a young couple. Their store is not very big but they have a active Facebook web page. They post pictures of their new arrivals every day or so and based on that they are moving a lot of guns. I was in their store one day picking up a gun and while I was doing the paperwork the owner took a phone call, then walked over and pulled two handguns out of the display case telling his wife they were sold.

In the last year we have brought one pistol and had them handle the transfer of another gun and two AR Lowers. The first two transfers they charged me $10.00 and the most recent one was $15.00. I don’t mind paying $15.00 as I figure $10.00 was too low for their time and trouble.

The other side of their business is gunsmith work. I am planning on having him ceracoat a couple of guns for me after the dust settles from buying Christmas presents and travel expenses.

kidneyboy said:

Right now there are more gun shops within 50 miles of my house than ever. Most of them are pretty good too. They use the internet, do transfers, know whats available and what isn't and encourage "finger fouling". There are at least 4 that have indoor shooting ranges and have classes. The really good small shops have working gun smiths. It's like the golden age for guns.
Some of you older guys need to get out more.

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Ah, come-on kidneyboy! I AM an "older guy" (71) and I DO get out enough to know there are more gun shops around here than ever before.
The flipside is, my retirement income, while not uncomfortable, is not large enough for me to "get out" and visit the many gun shops all that often due to the fact I'm easily tempted. Besides that, my wife (who is almost as old as I am) is into guns and shooting too. So we're running out of places to store guns in our relatively small house. And we're not about to move. For one thing, we couldn't afford it. Besides, we LIKE where we live - there's lots of gun shops within 50 miles of our house.
Seriously kidneyboy, until I read your post, I wasn't going to participate in this thread because I didn't "get" it. I mean, if "most gun shops are struggling with debt," why are there so many of them these days? I mean it - I've been going to gun shops for a long, long time. And while I can think of a few gun shops that have closed over the years (mostly due to the owners retirement or death) I can think of at least 3 gun shops that have opened for every 1 that closed. The difference is, the folks that have opened up and work in most of the "new" gun shops around here are only about half my age.
Oh, and the "new" gun shops sell a lot more ARs and 9mm semi-autos than the "old" gun shops did. Which is fine by me - our grandson, who lives and works in another state (Nevada) went to a local gun shop and bought himself an AR while he was home for Thanksgiving.

The internet is changing a lot about the retail business. Not just gun buying. It means that stores have to adapt and stay current. But there is always opportunity with change. Some stores will go away and others will adapt and thrive. Look at all of the big box stores that are struggling like Sears, Kmart and Macy's just to name a few. They refused to change their business model and are shutting down stores and filing bankruptcy. It just happens when the business climate shifts.

I have bought several guns online and find I usually save at least 20% even with the transfer fees. I also find that often I do research on what I am interested in buying and when I go to my local gun shop they do not have it. Several years ago I bought a Savage Scout rifle. I was interested in the scout rifle concept and settled on Savage. I could not find that gun anywhere in my area. One store did offer to order it for me but the price was $250 more than I ended up paying. That is why I buy online.

The LGS that have embraced technology have done just fine. The once that think it is still 1985 have issues.

Bang! said:

They’re not jackwagons, they’re thieves. If you found a firearm online you’re considering purchasing then you don’t get to handle that firearm. Part of shopping online that makes it cheaper. But, if you go into a brick and mortar to handle that firearm with no intentions of buying there, because you’re buying the one you found online, then your stealing their time and you’re stealing from their investments in resources. If you’re using their time and resources with no intentions of buying from them then you’re a thief without honor. It’s that simple.

Nothing wrong with shopping online. Nothing wrong with shopping for the best price. Stealing someone’s time and investment in resources is just that, thievery.

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So if I go to two car dealerships and test drive the same car then buy the one from the dealership with the best price am I stealing from the dealership I did not buy from? I test drove his car and took up the salesman's time. One of the dealerships just couldn't compete on price. What if you go in to test drive even though you know you can't afford the car. Is that stealing? What if you try on clothes. They fit. They look good on you but you leave without buying anything. Is that stealing? If I go into a gun store and fondle a bunch of guns I have no intention of buying is that stealing? All of that just seems like part of retail to me.

^ yep
Free market economy.

People only seem to get butt-hurt about this behavior in retail gun shops that is the exact same behavior constantly demonstrated in all other retail businesses.

Bang! said:

They’re not jackwagons, they’re thieves. If you found a firearm online you’re considering purchasing then you don’t get to handle that firearm. Part of shopping online that makes it cheaper. But, if you go into a brick and mortar to handle that firearm with no intentions of buying there, because you’re buying the one you found online, then your stealing their time and you’re stealing from their investments in resources. If you’re using their time and resources with no intentions of buying from them then you’re a thief without honor. It’s that simple.

Nothing wrong with shopping online. Nothing wrong with shopping for the best price. Stealing someone’s time and investment in resources is just that, thievery.

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This is completely backwards thinking when it comes to a retail environment. Everyone who walks into a store is a potential customer, if not today then somewhere down the road. It's almost the first thing you learn in retail. "Showrooming" is part of the deal.

Bang! said:

They’re not jackwagons, they’re thieves. If you found a firearm online you’re considering purchasing then you don’t get to handle that firearm. Part of shopping online that makes it cheaper. But, if you go into a brick and mortar to handle that firearm with no intentions of buying there, because you’re buying the one you found online, then your stealing their time and you’re stealing from their investments in resources. If you’re using their time and resources with no intentions of buying from them then you’re a thief without honor. It’s that simple.

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We used to call them SHIBES, Shop Here, Buy Elsewhere. Not sure if I'd go so far as to say thief, but it's certainly dishonest. Okay, so it's thievery.

I’d like to add gun shops that rely on gun sales are apt to fail. Gun shops that cater to a shooters needs are likely to succeed. Case in point, in the two I favor, mentioned earlier I have not bought a gun in several years, but I’ve spent several hundred this past few months on primers, bullets, powders, cleaning supplies and impulse counter gewgaws. Yesterday alone $90.00 for a pound of powder and a 500 box of .452 lead bullets with the state getting its 7%. I’m betting the markup on those supplies is at least as high as a gun, percentage wise.

kidneyboy said:

This is completely backwards thinking when it comes to a retail environment. Everyone who walks into a store is a potential customer, if not today then somewhere down the road. It's almost the first thing you learn in retail. "Showrooming" is part of the deal.

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Saying everyone is a potential customer just because they walk in the door is no more true than to say everyone who walks in your door is a potential shoplifter.
One learns pretty quickly to cull the chaff from the wheat. Someone who comes in to possibly buy from me is a customer, whether they do or not at that time. But someone who is in to mine my employees and myself for information with no intention of ever buying anything from our company is wasting time the company is paying for in terms of salaries.
We offer low priced ffl transfers. Most people receiving ffl transfers are online deal shoppers, which as others have said, there's nothing wrong with being. However, the point of having a loss leader such as a low priced for the LGS is to have ancillary sales of gun related merchandise. However, since most of that sort of thing can be bought more cheaply online and delivered to the person's house, those ancillary sales have been basically non existent.
Almost all of the posts trumpeting gun shops doing well are shops that offer much more besides guns alone. Ranges, smiths, etc. Probably supported by the "silly" folks who will pay 10 or 20 percent more than to an online seller for the same gun (when new) or for a used gun they can fondle before buying than saving those percents and buying online.
We all make our choices when and where to part with our greenbacks. I'm not going to argue the benefits and pitfalls of buying and the economics of manufacturing in today's world with today's consumers. Suffice to say sometimes, to me, it's worth spending a few more dollars to get a lot more support. Some people will take the support and not spend the money.

If your LGS has a constantly changing inventory of quality and desirable used firearms, "showrooming" is impossible.

There's no markup in guns. Almost zero profit. All the big money is in accessories. Ever notice the gun shops that are struggling are trying to sell only guns?
Every one I go to that has a lot of cleaning gear, solvents, ammo, cases, and other accessories is doing well.

For some dopey reason, some people think there is money to be made, just selling guns. They are always going to struggle.

Dibbs said:

There's no markup in guns. Almost zero profit. All the big money is in accessories. Ever notice the gun shops that are struggling are trying to sell only guns?
Every one I go to that has a lot of cleaning gear, solvents, ammo, cases, and other accessories is doing well.

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There's some folks who believe that guns, esp Glocks, don't need to be cleaned.

That's beside the point. Accessories have a huge markup. Guns don't.

Another point, how many used guns on display are shop owned and how many are consignment guns with shop owner getting upwards of 20 % for a few inches of display and. few minutes of time. Several avenues of income besides gun sales.

FlSwampRat said:

Saying everyone is a potential customer just because they walk in the door is no more true than to say everyone who walks in your door is a potential shoplifter.
One learns pretty quickly to cull the chaff from the wheat. Someone who comes in to possibly buy from me is a customer, whether they do or not at that time. But someone who is in to mine my employees and myself for information with no intention of ever buying anything from our company is wasting time the company is paying for in terms of salaries.

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Ah, prejudging as they walk in the door = missed opportunities.
Not educating potential customers = missed opportunities.

It takes me 3 or 4 trips and lots of questions to make a gun purchase. Am I the chaff or the wheat on my third trip?

kidneyboy said:

Ah, prejudging as they walk in the door = missed opportunities.
Not educating potential customers = missed opportunities.

It takes me 3 or 4 trips and lots of questions to make a gun purchase. Am I the chaff or the wheat on my third trip?

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Odd that you surmised when I made that judgement. Someone who is a repeat questioner about the same gun I assume is a serious buyer. Shibes will ask a bunch of questions and we'll never see them again. They'll have mined all of the info they want and skip to my loo to the other store. I have spent untolled hours attempting to educate customers on everything from stereos to guns and have had lots of customers buy and lots not buy. I keep stepping to the plate and taking my swings at the ball.
I have also had customers over the years who come in and never buy. Whether they are bored and wasting both of our times or are true Shibes I don't know. But after several times dealing with them I put them in the time waster category and am merely pleasant and polite.

Making judgements about other posters = silly.

FlSwampRat said:

Odd that you surmised when I made that judgement. Someone who is a repeat questioner about the same gun I assume is a serious buyer. Shibes will ask a bunch of questions and we'll never see them again. They'll have mined all of the info they want and skip to my loo to the other store. I have spent untolled hours attempting to educate customers on everything from stereos to guns and have had lots of customers buy and lots not buy. I keep stepping to the plate and taking my swings at the ball.
I have also had customers over the years who come in and never buy. Whether they are bored and wasting both of our times or are true Shibes I don't know. But after several times dealing with them I put them in the time waster category and am merely pleasant and polite.

Making judgements about other posters = silly.

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Not making judgements, making observations. Sorry if I came off as making judgements.
I spent 12 or 13 years in retail. Much of it as a sales manager in very high volume retail electronics. I did a lot of sales training so I have opinions (and you know what those are worth).

Shibes - I haven't heard that term in years

Gotta have a good supply of used guns. Can’t get enough markup on new ones.

Skeptic13 said:

So if I go to two car dealerships and test drive the same car then buy the one from the dealership with the best price am I stealing from the dealership I did not buy from? I test drove his car and took up the salesman's time. One of the dealerships just couldn't compete on price. What if you go in to test drive even though you know you can't afford the car. Is that stealing? What if you try on clothes. They fit. They look good on you but you leave without buying anything. Is that stealing? If I go into a gun store and fondle a bunch of guns I have no intention of buying is that stealing? All of that just seems like part of retail to me.

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I defined my opinion in my post. Reread my example and see how they apply to your examples. Then make your own opinion.

Bang! said:

They’re not jackwagons, they’re thieves. If you found a firearm online you’re considering purchasing then you don’t get to handle that firearm. Part of shopping online that makes it cheaper. But, if you go into a brick and mortar to handle that firearm with no intentions of buying there, because you’re buying the one you found online, then your stealing their time and you’re stealing from their investments in resources. If you’re using their time and resources with no intentions of buying from them then you’re a thief without honor. It’s that simple.

Nothing wrong with shopping online. Nothing wrong with shopping for the best price. Stealing someone’s time and investment in resources is just that, thievery.

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I don't know about thieves, right? A business has to earn business. I don't owe you anything if I walk into your store, but all people should be forthright.