Titegroup, BE-86 Burn Rate, 40 S&W Max Loads and Pressure

Hartkopf said:

Newbie fundamental question; What happens above max loads in relation to pressure and fps?

Would the pressure rises or spikes while bullet fps levels off and stops increasing? Also how does this feel to the shooter of a pistol? I would guess a more intense "bomb" near your hand but not much more muzzle flip because the bullet wasn't accelerated any quicker?

Click to expand...

Oh, above-max loads will drive the bullet faster. Max isn't defined by bullet velocity. Max is defined by peak pressure. I think maybe you've got a fundamental misapprehension as to how pressure works in internal ballistics... or maybe I'm misreading your posts.

Hartkopf said:

Slower burning is needed for max fps?

Click to expand...

Yes, generally. Slower burning has a later and, relatively-speaking, shallower peak pressure than faster powder. Loaded to the same total area under the curve (which will equate to the same muzzle velocity), the slower powder will have a lower peak pressure. Or, if we load the powders to the same peak pressure, then the slower powder will have more area under the curve, which will mean a higher muzzle velocity.

That's why, if you're loading for peak velocity, you generally want to look at one of the slower powders suitable for your cartridge. On the other hand, all that pressure under the curve equates to gas coming out the muzzle... which will generate more recoil than a fast powder loaded to the same velocity. That's why people use powder like Titegroup for ammo where they want to minimize recoil.

Hartkopf said:

I would like to know what happens passed max loads so I can identify problems as I get near max loads.

Click to expand...

What happens is the loads get hotter and then the brass fails and/or the gun blows up at some unknown point. This is why it is so important to use tested data. There is no reliable "hand chrono" that will tell you when you are in dangerous territory.

TG is one powder that gets very moody on the top end. Does not like compressed loads either. Not a powder you use for getting max velocity.

Titegroup is a FAST burning powder and you will get into trouble "faster" if you use to much or use a "max" load. It and other "fast burning powders build up pressure quickly so not the best choice for a high pressure round like the 40SW. Experienced reloaders like it cause it is cheap to use (less powder in the case)
You would be better off using a slower burn powder,
Powder burn and pressure is not linear(it maybe over the recommended load range) but as you get towards max, fast powders get you in trouble faster (spike) Slower powders usually give more of a case fill.

JMHO, It's all debatable

One other thing you need to consider... and I found this with BE-86 and my 9mm handloads... is there is a point where more powder does not equate to more velocity because of the barrel length coupled with an incomplete burn. When selecting a powder, a number of things need to be considered... cartridge, bullet weight, projected velocity, barrel length. In my case, my 3" and 3.6" 9mm barrels were not long enough to allow a complete burn of the powder charge past a certain point... I was getting hosed with powder granules, and my recorded velocity did not change past a certain charge weight... and I was not at maximum charge yet. BE-86 was too slow for the combination I had... so back to the drawing board.

For what you are wanting to do, and like the others suggested... please do some further research before starting, there is probably a better powder than both TiteGroup and BE-86 that will get you to your velocity goal without redlining your load. I have also found stated velocities in factory ammo... and reloading data, for that matter... to be a vague guideline, never an absolute. YOU have to work up any sort of load, with your components, with your pistol, and watch for signs of overpressure... things like flattened primers, primer flow, ejector marks, bulged brass (in pistol ammo.) Those are things to look for, but not absolutes.. because nothing in handloading is absolute.

Charlie98 said:

One other thing you need to consider... and I found this with BE-86 and my 9mm handloads... is there is a point where more powder does not equate to more velocity because of the barrel length coupled with an incomplete burn. When selecting a powder, a number of things need to be considered... cartridge, bullet weight, projected velocity, barrel length. In my case, my 3" and 3.6" 9mm barrels were not long enough to allow a complete burn of the powder charge past a certain point... I was getting hosed with powder granules, and my recorded velocity did not change past a certain charge weight... and I was not at maximum charge yet. BE-86 was too slow for the combination I had... so back to the drawing board....snip....

Click to expand...

I found the same thing when I shot ladder loads of Blue Dot (my wife's favorite 9mm powder) out of my shield. No change in velocity across the spread.

What specific handgun ?
Some 40 S&W barrels can be "not-supported" as well as other designs... leading to "Guppy / Glock 40 S&W brass".

https://www.google.com/search?q=40+...VA84Q_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1344&bih=741&dpr=1.25

I don't know about 40 S&W or Glocks but I have found that accuracy is not very good in my semi-auto's when loaded near max pressure. My semi-auto's are far more accurate when loaded near the minimum charges recommended. Just my preference to look for accuracy not power.

Although I'm surprised someone here hasn't already said something about it... I'm going to say you are looking for a powder more like PowerPistol, that seems to be the darling of the action shooters. In my experience, BE-86 is a little too slow for what I think you are asking out of it.

Hartkopf said:

This is what I wasn't sure of. You are saying it is actually very simple, pressure in a cylinder, behind a piston. Not accounting for burn rate and area under the curve, More powder equals more pressure equals more force behind the piston, basically every time? Until parts failure. So case capacity and parts failure are the limiting factors and the way around this is by tuning the fuel?

Most things in life are not this simple so I'm just looking for verification.

Click to expand...

At the point when things go Kaboom, it’s simple, you’ve exceeded some maximum. Let’s not go Kaboom.
There’s nothing simple about the pressure curves that are a result of rapid oxidation of a highly flammable solid into a gas in a captive space.
And another thing, you may not need to get to MAX load to experience a Kaboom. Stuff happens. That’s why you start at a starting recommendation that’s below MAX and work your way up. While not recommended, it may be you can exceed MAX and not have a Kaboom, but then you’re the one I don’t want to be standing next to at the range .
Look at the Hodgdon data online for your .40/165 combo and compare Titegroup vs CFE Pistol, and you’ll see using more powder for CFE has less pressure but more velocity. I’ve loaded a lot of Titegroup in .40 but for a different application than SD. Take a look at CFE Pistol for SD, or some powder close to it on the burn rate chart.
Good Luck!

Hartkopf said:

I will eventually be loading 40 S&W to max loads to duplicate hot 165gr defense ammo. I have some Titegroup at the moment but it doesn't look like it will be good for max loads. I searched and found members here recommending BE-86 for max loads. Does BE-86 burn slower than Titegroup? Slower burning is needed for max fps?

Click to expand...

Charlie98 said:

Although I'm surprised someone here hasn't already said something about it... I'm going to say you are looking for a powder more like PowerPistol, that seems to be the darling of the action shooters. In my experience, BE-86 is a little too slow for what I think you are asking out of it.

Click to expand...

BE-86 looks like a good powder for your task. It is slower than Titegroup and slightly faster than Power Pistol. Load data from Speer shows it pushing 165 grain bullets faster than Titegroup or Power Pistol. Sierra's data shows it produces the same velocity as Power Pistol.

Hartkopf said:

I had worked up to 4.8grs with nothing strange. Felt crisp and brass had no deformation. When I got to the above load of near 5grs, the gun had a strange, sharp vibration/jolt in my hand. Not really any more muzzle flip but more shock to my hands. (shooting a Glock 30) I backed down to 4.8grs after that.

Click to expand...

There are those times when you have to trust your senses, like “this feels/sounds strange”. We had a guy loading .45 for a 625 revolver, and out of the 6 rounds, we’d hear “pif, pop, Bang, puf, Bang, pew”! We convinced him he needed a bit more consistency and quality control in his reloading technique. He did get better over time, the point is even the report can be useful albeit somewhat subjective. A chrono does help, but does not guarantee to keep you out out of trouble. I’d be interested to hear what you end up with. And I believe there were other threads in this forum that discussed SD exclusively.