Removing serial number from 80% frame?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Elkins45

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
6,833
Location
Northern KY
I’m partially throwing this out for discussion but I’m also somewhat legitimately interested because there’s a seller nearby that has some Polymer80 Glock lower 80% kits at a good price. I suspect the reason the price is so good is because the only ones he has left in stock are the serialized ones such as are required in California.

Here’s the question: since an unfinished Polymer80 lower is not legally a firearm, would it be legal to remove the serial number before performing the operations needed to complete it? My thought is that it would be, since it isn’t a gun at that point. I would think timing is important because once it’s a gun a you can’t deface the serial number. Even though there is no legal requirement federally or in my state for a homemade gun to have a serial number, there’s also a law that says you can’t remove the serial number from a firearm. But if you remove the SN from what is legally just a hunk of plastic then it would never have been serialized at the time it became a firearm, so you legally haven’t removed the SN from a gun.

I realize this is the same sort of hair-splitting that requires you to assemble an AR lower as a pistol first or it will always be a rifle, but I’m sure there are people rotting in jail somewhere (or at least are much poorer) for not splitting that hair. I would think it would be wise to document the sequence of steps through photos or video. And before anyone says it, yes I realize just leaving the serial number in place really doesn’t have much of a downside. It just seems like that having a SN on an 80% build partially defeats the purpose.
 
This is worth reading:

Are Firearms without Serial Numbers Illegal

https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/

The law is this:

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

But I am going to tell you, Law Enforcement are not lawyers. In fact, they sort of confabulate things to fit their fuzzy understanding of the law. (Don't we all?) A bud of mine was stopped for speeding and he had an AR15 in the case, in the trunk. The Cop called in the "serial number" to see if the rifle had been stolen. The serial number was an alpha numeric number, like M15S ABC 123456. The LEO only called in the numeric part of the serial number, probably 123456 and what do you know, at least seven firearms with the serial number 123456 had been reported stolen! Bud went to jail that night. A friend posted bail to get him out. And he had to report to court, about an 1.5 hours drive away, within the month. Unless you carry an inflatable lawyer in your gun case, you might find your self spending time in the county jail, and lots of lawyer money in court, to clear yourself.
 
SNIP

Unless you carry an inflatable lawyer in your gun case, you might find your self spending time in the county jail, and lots of lawyer money in court, to clear yourself.

I understand this is the practical answer. As the old saying goes, “you might beat the rap but you won’t beat the ride.” My question is more about the legality than the practicality.

I read the article you quoted and excerpted the passage below:

There’s another possible scenario in which there is no serial number, and that is in the case of a home build. As of late, there has been a 80% or 60% receiver complete craze. In these particular cases, the gun cannot be sold or transferred and must only be for the manufacturer’s own personal use. If it is a home build manufactured by yourself, using your own equipment, for your own personal use, no serial number is required.​

Although not required, BATFE has stated: “ . . . we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.” http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html Again, this is simply a suggestion and not a legal requirement.
It would appear this indicates removing the SN from an 80% frame would be legal, but not recommended.
 
As it turns out, there's an inaccuracy in the quote I pulled from the article. You actually can sell a gun you've built yourself. You just can't make a business of it, and like dealing w/o a license I'm sure the ATF would tell you there's no "bright line" as to how many you can build and sell before you are breaking the law. I'm sure intent has something to do with it: if you build an 80% gun with the intent of selling it then you've already violated the law.
 
Well you might be within the law to remove it, but as mentioned you still could go round and round with it if questioned.

If the frame is not defined as a "firearm" then I myself do not see how you could break a law by removing a number from something that is not a firearm.
But I am sure some expert will weigh in on how laws are no supposed to make sense.

No taking the tag off you mattress could mean serious trouble!:what:

When in doubt spend money contact a Lawyer and call the ATF>
 
Okay complete legal novice here so bear with me if my post makes no sense. For one, I tend to agree with the position that if it is made a complete firearm and has the "appearance" of the SN having been removed, that would present a problem. On the flip side, if you complete it and it has no serial number anywhere on it, how do you go about "proving" you made it vice having an illegally de-serialized firearm in your possession?
 
The only serialised 80% that I've seen are finished firearms that require an ffl, unless they are selling unfinished, which I haven't seen. If they are finished, it would be a no go on the serial removal, obviously, but a grey area if it were a true 80%.
 
But I am sure some expert will weigh in on how laws are no supposed to make sense.
I'll ask here since you must have missed my question in the other thread. Do you honestly think that gun laws in the US make sense? Try explaining why a SB tactical "brace" isn't a stock, or why the Mossberg Shockwave is legal, or even why a rifle barrel must be 16"+ but a shotgun must be 18"+ to an intelligent, non "gun person" adult and ask them if those laws "make sense". o_O
 
... A bud of mine was stopped for speeding and he had an AR15 in the case, in the trunk. The Cop called in the "serial number" to see if the rifle had been stolen. The serial number was an alpha numeric number, like M15S ABC 123456. The LEO only called in the numeric part of the serial number, probably 123456 and what do you know, at least seven firearms with the serial number 123456 had been reported stolen! Bud went to jail that night. A friend posted bail to get him out. And he had to report to court, about an 1.5 hours drive away, within the month. Unless you carry an inflatable lawyer in your gun case, you might find your self spending time in the county jail, and lots of lawyer money in court, to clear yourself.

I'm thoroughly confused. If your buddy got pulled over for speeding, why is the officer rummaging through the trunk in the first place?
 
I'll ask here since you must have missed my question in the other thread. Do you honestly think that gun laws in the US make sense? Try explaining why a SB tactical "brace" isn't a stock, or why the Mossberg Shockwave is legal, or even why a rifle barrel must be 16"+ but a shotgun must be 18"+ to an intelligent, non "gun person" adult and ask them if those laws "make sense". o_O
The OP asked a good question. My opinion (worth nothing) is that it is not a firearm so doesn't need a serial number. Selective quoting can switch things around greatly. I also said:
Some legal expert will weigh in, which I see you have, so please advise the flock on what is correct?

You seem to have missed the boat. I didn't miss anything, just your perception of things.
Give it a rest, go banter and nit pick elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Silly question to the OP: What is your objection to having a CA serial number on your 80% lower?
I don’t really have one other than that it sort of violates the spirit of the whole reason to do an 80% build, which is anonymity. Of course, if the seller doesn’t record the SN then it’s a moot point, and since it’s not a firearm why would they go to the trouble?

Mainly I just thought it was an interesting question about how the law might be interpreted.
 
The only serialised 80% that I've seen are finished firearms that require an ffl, unless they are selling unfinished, which I haven't seen. If they are finished, it would be a no go on the serial removal, obviously, but a grey area if it were a true 80%.
If it’s a finished firearm then by definition it can’t be 80%. It’s 100% if it’s finished.

As far as I know California is the only state that requires serialization of homemade (“ghost”) guns.

People are selling “no FFL needed” kits with an 80% frame and all the parts needed to turn it into a functional gun. I suspect once the media gets a whiff of this I we will be getting a new interpretation of the rules from the ATF.
 
My take on this is this
Legally, you are perfectly allowed to remove the SN on something that 'isn't' a firearm. Only when you complete it does it become a firearm.
However perfectly legal you are to do this, removing the SN on something that will later become a gun will become something that'll effectively get you in trouble, simply because you cannot expect police or lawyers to already know the context of how you built/attained the pistol.
So , in practice, it's de facto illegal.
But it's still a interesting question nonetheless. This kinda goes back to the point, don't buy something until you know for sure it's the one you want. If you don't want one that has a SN, then simply don't buy the one with the SN.
 
You seem to have missed the boat. I didn't miss anything, just your perception of things. Give it a rest, go banter and nit pick elsewhere.
Your desire to sidestep a simple question does not constitute "nit picking" on my part. I'm not a legal expert, but even the legal experts say things like,
As I’ve said before, law is non-intuitive. One can’t just “ figure it out.” One needs to look things up, do the research.
 
Your desire to sidestep a simple question does not constitute "nit picking" on my part. I'm not a legal expert, but even the legal experts say things like,

Read post #6 it is directed at you
I also suggested contacting a lawyer and calling the ATF. But you chose to ignore that and pick selective things to "quote"

But I am sure some expert will weigh in on how laws are not supposed to make sense

Well then , "just look up the law and give us the answer to the OPs question". You can't, so you just like to argue/

I am done here.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top