1911 question

Status
Not open for further replies.
Slamfire said:
History is constantly being reinterpreted to meet the needs of today.

Many users of the M1911 justify carrying the M1911 in “condition one” by stating that the pistol was designed to be carried that way.

Unfortunately this claim is false, the M1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked. .

The adherents of this theory must be unaware of the evolution of the M1911. I highly recommend reading “The Government Models” by William H.D. Goddard to see the wonderful pictures and progression of Brownings automatic pistol design. I also recommend the “Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1991 and 1911A1 Charles W. Clawson”, but the pictures are not as good.

John Browning’s Models’ 1900, Model 1902, 1903 Pocket Model, Military Model 1905, M1909, M1910 did not have safety locks. There are safeties, , early on there is a hammer blocking device. This was the sight safety. The user pushed the back of the rear sight down, and that blocked the hammer from the firing pin. It did not last long. The grip safety was added later and stayed all the way through to the M1911.

The first thumb safety lock appears on the Model 1910 slant handle. It was added because the Cavalry apposed the adoption of a semiautomatic pistol because of their concerns about multiple accidental discharges while mounted. The Cavalry wanted to stay with their revolvers. As the primary user of a handgun, the Cavalry had the biggest vote at the table. John Browning’s thumb safety lock was a way for the cavalry to make the pistol safe with one hand.

Based on the serial numbers of some of the earlier models in the book, there must have been tens of thousands of these pistols built without a thumb safety lock.

Now how did John Browning carry this 45 ACP?

View attachment 878898

These pistols, and the M1911 were designed to be carried in “Condition two”, that is a round in the chamber with the hammer down. The thumb lock safety was to be engaged to make the pistol safe when the user’s other hand was occupied. The manual of arms from 1913 clearly shows that the hammer was to be lowered (using two hands) when the M1911 was holstered.


Army 1913 Small Arms Manual:

View attachment 878899

View attachment 878900

View attachment 878901

If you cannot read the text on the bottom of pgs 91 and 92:




So why did the Army change the regulations?:Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, page 95, provides the clue:



It is obvious that accidental discharges occurred when the hammer was lowered . The Army had to find an alternative, something that did not require redesign of the M1911, and the Army went the easy path of creating a procedure that would result in fewer accidental shootings.

So carrying the M1911 cocked and locked, in the flap holster was instituted.

But the point is, the M1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked.

The Army also determined that single action autopistols, even those that could be carried cocked and locked , still had too many accidents, so by the time the M1911 was replaced, (1980's) the requirements for the replacement pistol effectively prohibited single action autos.

Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, Major Julian Hatcher, Small Arms Technical Publishing 1935.

“ Thus with the hammer down and resting on the face of the breech and the loaded cartridge in the chamber, the .45 automatic is perfectly safe and the best way to carry it is with the hammer down on a loaded cartridge. Great care should be used, however, in lowering the hammer on to a live cartridge, and two hands should always be used for this job” pg 94.

I was very lucky to find that 1913 Small Arms Manual in a used bookshop, someone else will need to conduct their own research into when Army carry policy changed from round in chamber, hammer down, pistol in flap holster, to round in chamber, cocked and locked in flap holster. The second condition had to be before WW2, so long that “Cooperites” had no idea of this policy. I am coining the word “Cooperites” as followers of Jeff Cooper. I have not read anything from Jeff Cooper where he states the M1911 was “designed” to be carried one way or another. However, Jeff Cooper and his crowd created quick draw self defense games, heavily influenced by the Cowboy “walk and draw” craze of the 50’s, in which you shot a number of rounds in a timed period, with the pistol starting in the holster. Of course the pistol that could be drawn quickest and fired fastest was considered the “best” combat pistol.

The M1911 could win this contest as long as it was carried cocked and locked in an open top holster. Whether it is best policy to walk into a shooting conflict with your pistol in your holster, or whether it is better to take the thing out and have the pistol ready to shoot, I would go for the latter. But Cooperites have played their games and carried their M1911’s cocked and locked for so long, that to justify their carry condition, they claim that the gun was originally designed to be carried this way. It was not. I am confident that their mode of carry would have been considered too dangerous prior to WW1 as a cocked hammer still makes people nervous, and those Army Officers who had seen plenty of accidental discharges with every pistol in service, from Colt SAA, to Colt New Service, would not have been comfortable with the carry mode you see today.

This is a bare bones military configuration1911 and I like the configuration.

View attachment 878902

I consider carrying a 1911 cocked and locked dangerous because I have had the safety bump off. So have many others. And, it is easy to accidentally bump extended safeties on/off. Happens all the time. The pistol was designed, and carried, round in the chamber, hammer down. The only reasonably safe way to lower the hammer is to pull the trigger with one hand, and place the middle finger of the other hand, between the hammer and frame. I pull the trigger, the hammer is released but it is blocked by the middle finger. I pull the middle finger slowly out, lowering the hammer slowly, using the forefinger behind the hammer spur to control the process more positively. When I get the hammer to half cock, my middle finger is totally withdrawn, and it is a simple matter of lowering the hammer completely down, slowly, with the forefinger.

Once the hammer is down, the only way to fire the gun is by dropping it on its muzzle. The mechanism has a short, rebounding firing pin that will not contact the primer unless it is hit hard by the hammer. A high enough drop will create enough inertia that the firing pin will over come the spring tension. For a series 70 action, this is true whether the hammer is down, or the piece is cocked and locked. Once the hammer is down, the long hammer spur and out of the way grip safety tang allow quick thumb cocking, either by the support hand or the shooting hand. The early pre A1 1911's had a very wide hammer spur and the grip safety did not have a tang, all features to make it easy to thumb cock the pistol.

The pistol only has a safety because the horse cavalry needed a way to make the pistol safe with one hand. If the horse went bonkers, the rider could convulsively grab the trigger and fire the weapon. The safety allowed the rider to make the piece safe with one hand. Assuming he did not fall off the horse before putting the safety on. I knew a gunsmith who was in the pre WW2 horse cavalry. A bud of his fell off his horse during saber practice. His sword was attached to his wrist by the sword knot. Bud had released the sword, but still, it was attached to his wrist, and did not go far. As he fell, the sword reversed, rotated, the point got under the arm pit of the falling rider. The man was impaled when he and his sword hit the ground. He died, and it was not uncommon for men to be hurt, or shots fired, when riders lost control of their horses.

As I wrote earlier, the pistol has been heavily modified, starting in the 1950's with the Leatherslap crowd, to make the pistol fast to shoot in quick draw games. Walk and draw Cowboy games were all the rage, you could easily identify evil doers as they wore black cowboy hats. And it was well established in movies and TV, that the first man to clear leather always won the gunfight.

View attachment 878903

Hence the long, extended safeties, (which bump off, and on easily!) and beavertails (which are comfortable), and small hammers. These modifications make condition two carry difficult, but the original A1 configuration, which the RIA GI follows, makes condition two easy. Just don't lower the hammer with the thumb of the shooting hand. Lots of accidental discharges have occurred when the hammer slipped off the thumb. Use two hands to lower the hammer.
Click to expand...

Them's a whole lotta words which add up to "wrong".

JMB didn't design the pistol to be carried any particular way at all.

What he did was design design a pistol with features to met the Army's specifications/desires so they would buy his gun. In fact, his first submission didn't have a thumb safety at all.

The Army came back and said, "hey, this is pretty cool... but we want this and this and this, and oh by the way, modify this so it looks like this..."

Basically, he installed an "options package" that the Army could use however they saw fit.

As an engineer myself, I can only imagine the frustration and dedication the man must have had in dealing with this.

How the pistol was to be carried was a matter of Army policies and regulations.

BOTTOM LINE:

The design features ALLOW it to be carried "Condition 1" safely. Therefore if YOUR "policy" says you can, then you can.

The whole "I've had the safety come off before" excuse isn't a design flaw. If it's carried in a proper holster and not fidget-fingered, this is not a problem.
 
I've carried a Condition 1 1911 for 38 years. I can count the number of times I've found the thumb safety off on one hand...using no fingers or the thumb.

Even if the thumb safety is accidentally switched off you still have the grip safety. That makes the 1911 safer than many polymer pistols on the market. A "safety" on the trigger isn't a safety at all in my mind.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
JMB didn't design the pistol to be carried any particular way at all.
Click to expand...

You did not look at John Browning's initial submitalls nor the number of iterations in the pistol trials before the Cavalry identified a need to make the pistol safe with one hand.

And what condition would John Browning carried his M1905 45 ACP version? You have totally ignored that one. I really doubt he would have carried the thing condition 1, because that pistol did not have a grip safety nor a thumb safety. It did have the short, rebounding firing pin, which was carried over to the 1911. This allowed condition 2 carry and is a feature that would have not been needed had the pistol and the Army only intended condition 1 carry.

That short rebounding firing pin is now the incredibly disappearing rebounding firing pin. The cocked and locked crowd don't need it and ignore it. But it is there for a purpose that they don't follow and want the memory of its function and purpose to disappear. It is there so the pistol can be carried condition 2.

How the pistol was to be carried was a matter of Army policies and regulations.
Click to expand...

Sure, and polices and regulations are easy to change, hardware changes takes more work. In one thread on 1911 carry, a Vietnam veteran wrote that when he was in Southeast Asia, policy was that the 1911 was not to be carried with a magazine in the pistol. Policy allowed a magazine in the pistol on the way to the drop zone, but not a round in the chamber. And then, once on the ground in Indian territory, policy allowed a round to be chambered.

The design features ALLOW it to be carried "Condition 1" safely. Therefore if YOUR "policy" says you can, then you can.
Click to expand...

That safety is a sear blocking safety. The series 70 design does not have a firing pin block. The firing pin is free floating. A sharp blow to the hammer spur will shear either the sear or the full cock notch. There are period warnings not to carry the pistol with the hammer at half cock precisely because half cock notches had sheared and allowed the hammer to hit the rebounding firing pin. I have read accounts of cocked and locked 1911 discharging due to the hammer being struck by an external object. One that I recall was a closing double door that hit the hammer, and the 1911 discharged.

qfw9CGh.jpg

I believe this is why this beavertail safety was notched to enclose the hammer.

Bg6BuS8.jpg

That beavertail is in the way of thumb cocking and in the way of lowering the hammer. All you can basically do with this configuration is carry the 1911 cocked and locked, making the hammer for all purposes, vestigial. Might as well dump the hammer and carry a striker fired pistol. And I believe, I have seen industry respond with striker fired pistols designed to be carried condition one.

The whole "I've had the safety come off before" excuse isn't a design flaw. If it's carried in a proper holster and not fidget-fingered, this is not a problem.
Click to expand...

Cocked and locked fans always have to fall back on holster design to justify condition one carry. The holster has to have the features to prevent the safety from being bumped to ready, because they are not on the pistol. But search this forum and you will find a number of shooters who have had the safety bump to ready with a fully loaded pistol. And is probably true of the flap holster as what Hatcher wrote makes me believe that it happened with the military holster.

After much use, I don't like long extended safeties and I care even less for ambidextrous extended safeties. Not only do they easily bump from safe to ready, but they also easily bump from ready to safe, just when need to use your 1911. That is why defense schools teach their students to ride the safety with the thumb. Something I find uncomfortable. This procedure has to be followed because the 1911 was modified beyond designer's intent, and carried beyond designer's intent. One of my shooting buds is a range master at an indoor range. I asked him how often he observes shooters struggling with their 1911's because they inadvertently bumped the safety from ready to safe. And he sees it frequently, couple a times of week, maybe more, as he was not keeping records. That extended safety is dangerous to the user on a self defense pistol. All those who carried a 1911 and shoot it need to consider in their training an inadvertent safety bump. I have seen on one of those Top Gun shows a highly trained (Seal or Special Forces type) bump the safety from ready to safe in one of those shooting competitions. It ruined his score as he had to take time to puzzle out why his pistol was not going bang.

This is a major reason I consider this configuration more fool proof than a 1911. No external flippers or levers. First shot is a double action pull.

25N2vY0.jpg

You love your 1911, fine. You want to carry your 1911, fine. Understand the limitations and risks of this design instead of wishing them away. For they are there.
 
@Slamfire

You assume much. I've read plenty on the subject, and conversed with quite a number of people on the subject.

Did JMB ever put out a manual saying how the 1911 was or was not to be carried?

No. He did not.

And how he may or may not have carried his own is irrelevant. ESPECIALLY since the thread is about the 1911 and NOT the 1905 you switched to. You can't swap pistols to something which has a different design and different features like this and equate how they're "intended" to be carried. You COULDN'T carry the 1905 in Condition 1 ("Cocked and Locked") because the 1905 didn't have a manual safety. The best you could say it had in the line of a "safety" was "half-cock". And you can't say "he would have carried a 1911 the same way he did the 1905" because that's pure conjecture. I own several handguns, and I don't necessarily carry any given one "cocked and locked", if for no other reason than many cannot be carried that way.

And even if he DID carry it one way or another, that would have been based on his own personal beliefs, since he had several different options. The man could have carried the gun unloaded, no magazine in the well, without a round in the chamber, gun cocked and manual safety on if he wished. If he had done that, would that mean we should ALL carry the 1911 that way?

Again, the answer is "no".

My AMT Automag II, for example, has a manual safety. But it cannot be carried "cocked and locked" because the safety does NOT lock the hammer/trigger mechanism. It simply rolls a metal blocking bar up to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin. You can still drop the hammer by pulling the trigger. And if you pull the trigger, that means taking the safety off does not place the weapon in an immediate condition to fire because on that pistol you'd have to cock the gun (there is no double action feature).

Likewise, my Beretta 92FS cannot be carried "cocked and locked" because the manual safety on that pistol is actually a de-cocking mechanism. Though firing it after taking the safety off does not require cocking (double action feature), the trigger pull and mechanism operation is significantly different than that of the single action 1911. Again, not the same.

I can safely carry these two examples loaded with a round in the chamber and the manual safety on...but they're NOT the same.

The 1911 was designed to give the Army what they wanted. PERIOD. The features they wanted enabled the gun may be carried any number of ways, inherent with there respective engineering designs of the features. That's all.

The Army could detail how they wanted those features to be used, for any reasons they wished. In fact, the military went so far as to detail the specific condition a 1911 was to be carried in based on the existing threat condition and standard operating procedures. Many times, back in my early days in the Navy, the topside watch carried his 1911 in Condition 4 (chamber empty, no magazine in the well, hammer down).

You and I can detail how we want those features to be used for any reasons we wish, also.


BOTTOM LINE:

Unless you can point to specific documents where JMB explicitly stated how the 1911 was to be carried, then all you can do is "conjecture". And since nobody can point to any such documents, nobody can say for sure what he thought on the subject. He (and his team) designed the gun in accordance with what the Army wanted. No more. No less.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Unless you can point to specific documents where JMB explicitly stated how the 1911 was to be carried, then all you can do is "conjecture". And since nobody can point to any such documents, nobody can say for sure what he thought on the subject. He (and his team) designed the gun in accordance with what the Army wanted. No more. No less.
Click to expand...

You know, J.S Hatcher personally knew John Browning, and given the time period he joined the Army Ordnance Bureau, 1917, and the small number of people who were in it, he would have know the developers and testers of the 1911. And yet in his book Textbook of Revolvers and Pistols, he is recommending condition two carry.

The 1911 was designed to give the Army what they wanted. PERIOD. The features they wanted enabled the gun may be carried any number of ways, inherent with there respective engineering designs of the features. That's all.
Click to expand...

So, you have the original operation requirements for the pistol development that lead to the 1911. I have not found them, so all I can do is look at secondary documents. But you must have them, to claim that. Not one of the secondary documents of the WW1 period that I have advocate condition one carry. The thumb safety was not introduced until after years of troop trials and after many models were tested without a thumb safety. The cocked and locked crowd are simply creating their own narrative and historical mythology to justify their preferred carry mode. You demand documentation but you don't supply anything. Where is your proof of anything you are saying? Release the operational requirements and let us read them.

I have shown what the Army policy was in 1913 for carry of the 1911 and it is not condition one. Condition one came about due to quick draw games of the 1950's and 1960's, something of which Cavalry units really did not have to worry about in real combat. When they were expecting combat they would have been directed by their Officers to draw pistol or sword and engage the enemy. The horsemen of the time were familiar with the Colt SAA, and if you read the troop trails of the period, they wanted to keep their revolvers. And I think, the revolver they wanted to keep was the Colt SAA. They were familiar with thumb cocking and lowering the hammer down to make the piece safe.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
The whole "I've had the safety come off before" excuse isn't a design flaw. If it's carried in a proper holster and not fidget-fingered, this is not a problem.
Click to expand...

Texas10mm said:
I've carried a Condition 1 1911 for 38 years. I can count the number of times I've found the thumb safety off on one hand...using no fingers or the thumb.

Even if the thumb safety is accidentally switched off you still have the grip safety. That makes the 1911 safer than many polymer pistols on the market. A "safety" on the trigger isn't a safety at all in my mind.
Click to expand...
Ive carried them on a daily basis in all sorts of "proper" holsters over the years, and every holster that Ive used, I would find the thumb safety off at the end of the day, on a fairly regular basis.

If you carry one and youre the least bit active in what you do, sooner or later, you're going to find that safety off. And like a Glock or anything else in a holster, its no big deal if it is.

The grip safeties are arent infallible either, and Ive bought a couple of 1911's that came with them inoperative, right out of the box. So, like any other safety you plan on relying on, you'd best be checking it regularly. Personally, any more, Im in the "pin them" camp too. I find more and more that they can be a detriment, especially if youre used to getting a high grip on the gun, which tends to activate the grip safety.

I carried 1911's for about 25 years and quit about 20 years ago. Even though I still shoot with one a couple of times a month, I find that grip safety to be more and more of an annoyance.
 
Condition 2? Reeeeally? Hammer down on a round in the chamber in a 1911? Arguably the most unsafe condition the weapon can be carried in?

And you know who J.S. Hatcher wasn't?

He wasn't John Moses Browning.

You know who else he wasn't?

He wasn't the design team. And apparently he wasn't on anything Army related to the 1911 project.

And the fact that the Army may or may not have changed the condition in which the 1911 was to be carried does not make any difference either...that's an Army policy/regulation matter, based on whatever prevailing thoughts were and the design features the 1911 was capable of enabling. Nothing more and nothing less.

Apparently he's just somebody who "knew" JMB.

Regardless, he's not JMB and his opinion on how the 1911 was to be carried is thus his own and not JMB or anybody else's.

There is no record of JMB explicitly saying ANYTHING about how the 1911 SHOULD be carried.

AND...the fact that the Army may change the condition in which the 1911 was to be carried for any reason should not be a surprise, given the radical changes in firearms technologies in the preceeding years and what the Army had commonly carried before when they transitioned to the 1911. Carrying revolvers beforehand was often done with the hammer down on an empty chamber. This didn't make a functional difference in the operation of single action revolvers...it just reduced the number of bullets in the gun from a maximum of 6 to 5. The 1911 (and the pistols it evolved from) represented a radical change in gun design and operation from revolvers. Attitudes evolve quite a lot when transitioning from one platform to another, as people who are initially reluctant to change the way things were grow into the new platform or are eventually rotated out through retirement and attrition over the years.

There are several conditions the 1911 can be in, all based on the design features engineered into the pistol based on Army requests. How those features are to be utilized are based on the user. In this case, since we're talking about history here, the historical user is the organization which ASKED for those features to be included...the Army.
 
Slamfire said:
something of which Cavalry units really did not have to worry about in real combat. When they were expecting combat they would have been directed by their Officers to draw pistol or sword and engage the enemy.
Click to expand...

The key words are "real combat" which none of us, including me, are in. In real combat, all the safety rules are forgotten because one is already in the most unsafe world that ever existed..
As far as lowering the hammer on a 1911-A1 or BHP? When I load my 1911-A1, I pull the slide back; then insert a magazine and release the slide. Am I correct or not? At this point, it is loaded and the hammer is back.
Now, I have one of three choices. With the 1911-A1, I can lock it in condition one, lower the hammer to the first click or depend on the grip safety. I don't know of any other choices.
My S&W M-59 has a de-cocker. I load it and push the lever, the hammer falls and safely.
 
Nobody has mentioned what we call condition 3, that's what my 1940s Army manual on the 1911 calls for. Cocked and locked after the pistol is out of the holster and you are in a combat situation.
 
JR24 said:
And I learned the hard (as in hole in my floor) way that no matter how many times you safely lower a hammer on a live round, disaster is only one slip away.
Click to expand...

Yep! I only did that once but it was at the range with the muzzle in a safe direction. I had a nice blood blister on my thumb for a few weeks to remind me of the foolishness of lowering a 1911 hammer on a loaded chamber.

I LOVE 1911's but I don't carry them. I carry either a SA/DA with decocker, DA only or a plastic fantastic. Same thing for home defense.
 
I am a Condition #1 sissy, always carry in Condition #3 - I know the failure rate is close to zero but mechanical things do fail - I have better odds of shooting the floor than needing to be faster than a bad guy - odds of the lesser of the two evils.
 
RON in PA said:
Nobody has mentioned what we call condition 3, that's what my 1940s Army manual on the 1911 calls for. Cocked and locked after the pistol is out of the holster and you are in a combat situation.
Click to expand...
Once the gun is "loaded" and in your hand, the safety should be off.

This is something Ive never understood about the insistence on the manual safety being so much safer than something like a Glock. Once the gun is drawn and in hand, it should be ready to go. If it has a manual safety, it should be off.

With a 1911, or anything that has a manual safety that is engaged while being carried, that is something that should be ingrained at the draw.
 
Springs wear out from repeated use and/or being left compressed past their design limit for long periods of time. Being compressed within their design limit isn't harmful.

Cocked and locked is faster than not having a round in the chamber or having a round chambered and the hammer down. The design of the gun makes is safe to carry C&L. If the hammer slips the sear it is caught on the way down. Unless the maker has fiddled with the design.
 
Many years ago I read one of Jeff Cooper’s books in which he advocated for Condition One carry. He didn’t like the military holster because it made that impossible. But he did show in a series of photographs the steps to get a 1911 in Condition Three out of the holster and into action quickly. The idea was to grab the slide with the left hand as you thrust the gun forward with the right. It’s surprisingly fast. And fun. As I recall he had no use for Condition Two as the half cock notch was prone to failure, and the risk of accidental discharge is high.

So, when I carry this, on Veterans and Memorial Day it's in Condition Three.
fHOCJTC.jpg

When I carry this, it’s in Condition One.
IXSgawM.jpg
 
Safety on or safety off after the gun has been drawn is a matter of preference that had also gone around the board a few times.

My preference is "safety off" when drawn because my philosophy is that when I've reached the point of drawing my weapon, I've reached the point of imminent use.

There are others who differ from my opinion on this, and that's OK... so long as they train appropriately in accordance with their preferences.

There are many ways the 1911 may be carried, many ways it can be carried in a holster, many ways it can be made ready to use, etc. So long as it's not outright unsafe, all these ways represent "options" that are the purview of the user.
 
My theory is empty chamber, hammer cocked, safety off, loaded mag in place. I practice racking the slide as I draw. Also in a physical fight if someone got control of my gun and pllled the trigger it wouldn't fire, giving me more time to respond . hdbiker
 
hdbiker said:
My theory is empty chamber, hammer cocked, safety off, loaded mag in place. I practice racking the slide as I draw. Also in a physical fight if someone got control of my gun and pllled the trigger it wouldn't fire, giving me more time to respond . hdbiker
Click to expand...

Try doing all that with ONE hand. There's a good chance in a close engagement you'll only have one free hand.
 
People would be better off finding something they are comfortable with and understand well, than to use something they arent/dont.

Most of all of that is just a lack of knowledge, training, and experience with things they dont know, and a good reason to put some time and effort in to learn something new.

Ive never understood the resistance to that, but I guess it is what it is.
 
roval said:
i never realized this thread would require so much popcorn...
Click to expand...

Ever since I found this forum I buy in bulk.
The FBI has spoken and .45 ACP is useless in a gunfight.
The .40 S&W is just a weaker .45 ACP so obviously twice a useless.
The .380 won't penetrate clothing....
The 9mm is a super round.
Anything smaller than 9mm is less effective than throwing rocks.


Despite the fact that's not what the FBI actually said and very little evidence (if any) exist to actually support that conjecture. Ellifritz data (though far from conclusive) suggest even the .22 LR is much closer to the 9x19mm in effect than a rock despite all the people who want to claim otherwise.

Anyone who would carry anything without a round chambered and in less than 9mm is much better off going unarmed. I think what evidence we have seem refutes that as the majority of defensive encounters are resolved without firing the weapon and when hit with one even .22 RF is effective far more often than not (based on what evidence we have).

People love to throw around Hyperbole with very little basis.

...and yes I do think a round chambered is ideal but unchambered is far from less desirable than going unarmed.

PS Time to order another pallet or two of popcorn.
 
Last edited:
For 1911 aficionados who do not lower the hammer on a live round, do you only feel this way on series 70 1911s? The series 80 incorporated a firing pin block. So you could lower the hammer on a live round after releasing the trigger. (For those who do not know the design)
 
herrwalther said:
For 1911 aficionados who do not lower the hammer on a live round, do you only feel this way on series 70 1911s? The series 80 incorporated a firing pin block. So you could lower the hammer on a live round after releasing the trigger. (For those who do not know the design)
Click to expand...
The 1911 has a bunch of safeties. However, to get to Condition 2, you have to defeat all of them. Outside of safety concerns, I don't have use for a 1911 in Condition 2. It is a condition of carry that just doesn't afford me any advantage.

I'm sure I could eventually run into a scenario where Condition 2 could be of use to me. However, up to now (I've been shooting 1911's since the 1980's) I haven't found a situation where Condition 2 would be an advantage to me. I have a Series 80 Colt, and the presence of the firing pin safety has no bearing on my lack of interest in Condition 2.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
  • Locked
New 1911 owner
2
Replies
25
Views
949
Greg528iT
G
T
  • Locked
1911 Holster Question
Replies
1
Views
538
George Hill
G
H
  • Locked
Springfield EMP question
Replies
6
Views
462
Wild Deuce
W
M
  • Locked
Safely modding the 1911 beavertail for Smartcarry?
Replies
10
Views
588
withdrawn34
W
R
  • Locked
1911 A1 Locked & Loaded Question
2
Replies
37
Views
4K
rick2gun
R
Back
Top