Full size all metal 9mm

Beretta M9A3 $763
I really like the Vertec Grip setup a lot better.

fireside44 said:

Is yours a single action only or a decocker model?

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My SP-01 is DA/SA with the decocker (called Tactical). I have my 85 Combat (shown in the photo that I posted above) converted to single action only with the CGW (Cajun Gun Works) 6SAO trigger and several additional CGW parts in it, plus the Pre-B short trigger reset. It has an awesome action and trigger pull. The entire range of fore-and-aft trigger movement is within the thickness of the trigger. Anyone familiar with the factory CZ triggers will know how much of a change that represents.

You CAN convert the decocker/Tactical model to single action only but it's not a good idea because you have no safety. CGW will not install the SAO trigger in a decocker gun, and they strongly advise customers not to do so.

Mosin Bubba said:

I was actually just talking about that pistol with a relative this last week at a Christmas party. He uses it for 3-gun; says the gun shoots great but the double-stack grip is a little too fat for his tastes. He's in the market for a single-action 9mm 1911 now.

As far as other metal-framed 9mms, I love the way the Beretta 92s feel - the grip is absolutely spacious, plus the gun is lighter than you might think because of the aluminum frame. But I just never got the hang of the long trigger. YMMV; I've seen people shoot the lights out with 92s so I know it's not the gun.

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I agree, I have the 92FS built by Taurus I bought more than 35 years ago. I love the design. Only reason I didn't buy Beretta than because I could not afford it when I was a private in the ARMY.

Here is a Beretta M9a1 for $475 https://gunprime.com/products/beretta-m9a1-9mm-4-9-bl-2-15rd-br92m9a1m
Here is a M9a3 https://gunprime.com/products/beretta-m9a3-fs-9mm-5-2-ns-17-shot-threaded-tan-italy-j92m9a3m

There is no chance of me paying $300 more for an a3 over the a1 but to each their own.

My EAA Witness "clones" are probably my favorite service pistols. My FiL liked my first one so much that he bought a NiB CZ75. It's equally good.

I have a Beretta 96 and a Taurus 92. The Beretta has a better trigger; the Taurus has a much better safety arrangement.

I like my 9mm 1911 a lot (of course).

My Sig P229 is amazing.

You can't go wrong with any of those. It's just a question of which one fits your hand and shooting style best (CZ75 variants and Beretta variants are better for larger hands). I purchased the Taurus NiB in 1990 or so. The rest were used or surplus/trade-in and didn't cost much.

The 1911, Beretta, and CZ are not exactly new designs. Modern factories in The Philippines, Brazil, Italy (Tanfoglio), Turkey, etc. can and do make perfectly functional copies.

This one was something like $330 or so, plus shipping and FFL. It was made in Italy by Tanfoglio, used in Israel for military-connected shooting clubs, then sold as surplus. It functions perfectly and will likely outlast me.

OP what is the realistic budget and how much of that do you want to spend?

I6turbo said:

Get an SP-01, then later when you can sneak it under the divorce radar, get a Cajun Gun Works Pro Package https://cajungunworks.com/product/75664-pro-package-for-decockers/ (or the one for safety gun if you go with a safety). If you want to convert to Single-action-only at some point, you'll need to get the safety gun instead of the decocker.

IME, the above SP-01 path will give you a BETTER action and trigger than the factory Shadow, and you'll have your full-size steel, 18+1 rounds, and a rail, AND your marriage intact.

My SP-01 is a fantastically accurate shooter, so I really question whether a Shadow or a worked gun would shoot any better in my hands. I assume accuracy is a little bit more of a luck-of-the-draw with a standard gun than with a Shadow or higher level gun, but my SP-01 leaves little room for improvement, and I've read the same from quite a few other people.

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Agree with this. The shadow 2 is not way better than the sp01 tactical. I own both. Although I have not yet done any CGW work i am considering it.

I6turbo said:

Get an SP-01, then later when you can sneak it under the divorce radar, get a Cajun Gun Works Pro Package https://cajungunworks.com/product/75664-pro-package-for-decockers/ (or the one for safety gun if you go with a safety). If you want to convert to Single-action-only at some point, you'll need to get the safety gun instead of the decocker.

IME, the above SP-01 path will give you a BETTER action and trigger than the factory Shadow, and you'll have your full-size steel, 18+1 rounds, and a rail, AND your marriage intact.

My SP-01 is a fantastically accurate shooter, so I really question whether a Shadow or a worked gun would shoot any better in my hands. I assume accuracy is a little bit more of a luck-of-the-draw with a standard gun than with a Shadow or higher level gun, but my SP-01 leaves little room for improvement, and I've read the same from quite a few other people.

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I6turbo said:

My SP-01 is DA/SA with the decocker (called Tactical). I have my 85 Combat (shown in the photo that I posted above) converted to single action only with the CGW (Cajun Gun Works) 6SAO trigger and several additional CGW parts in it, plus the Pre-B short trigger reset. It has an awesome action and trigger pull. The entire range of fore-and-aft trigger movement is within the thickness of the trigger. Anyone familiar with the factory CZ triggers will know how much of a change that represents.

You CAN convert the decocker/Tactical model to single action only but it's not a good idea because you have no safety. CGW will not install the SAO trigger in a decocker gun, and they strongly advise customers not to do so.

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bob97 said:

Agree with this. The shadow 2 is not way better than the sp01 tactical. I own both. Although I have not yet done any CGW work i am considering it.

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Lots of confusing terminology being used in these posts. @I6turbo when you say Shadow are your referring to the out of production CZ 75 Shadow or the Shadow 2? I am going to assume you are referring to the Shadow 2.

CZ 75 Shadow https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-shadow-9mm/ vs Shadow 2 https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-shadow-2-black-blue/

I am not sure how the SP01 which is essentially a factory 75B in a different frame is going to have a better trigger out of the box than a Shadow 2? The SP01 is nothing more than a fullsized P01 frame with standard CZ internals. DA/SA with or without decocker or SAO but they are still the same as every other 75B variant. The Shadow 2 has a redesigned trigger which was designed for Production Class Competition shooters. It is superior in its design to the standard 75B trigger mechanism. IMHO The Shadow 2 also offers a longer slight radius,extended thumb safety, extended and swapable mag release. The frame was redesigned with things like an undercut trigger guard and higher beavertail allowing shooters to get closer to the bore axis of the gun which is essential to being able to shoot fast. The slide profile is made to shift weight to the front of the gun to prevent muzzle flip and make the gun very flat shooting. These improvements to the frame, action and ergos of the gun make it a better shooter in most peoples hands. Honestly everything on the Shadow 2 is an "improvement". Now "improvement" is subjective because ergonomics are subjective.

As far as accuracy every guns accuracy is a bit of a crap shoot but I am willing to bet every stock CZ in my safe is inherently mechanically more accurate than I am. Most of the time what makes one gun more accurate in my hands is my interface with the gun, ie subjective ergonomic, not the gun itself. That said if you want to improve the accuracy of a CZ put a CZ Customs or CGW bushing in it and the gun will tighten up. I have CGW 10X bushing in a 75B, Shadow 2 and an all steel P01. One paper slow fire all of these showed improvement with the installation of the bushing. In rapid fire defensive or competition type settings it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Owning may different CZs from a P01, 75B, 75B SAO, Shadow 2, All Steel P01, PCR, 75B Compact etc.... there is a huge difference between the SP01 and the Shadow 2 if you are looking to shoot fast with combat or competition level accuracy. This does not make the SP01 a bad gun. It is a good if not great gun but it is not a Shadow 2. Right out of the box the Shadow 2 is one of the best values in a full sized 9mm today. It can be had for less than $1000 OTD give or take a bit depending on what you pay a local FFL for transfers. To the OP @fireside44 if the budget allow this would be my personal choice.

CZ is good, I prefer the trigger and feel (and safety/decocker location) of Sig's, specifically the 226. So I'd keep an eye out for a trade in 9mm that occasionally pop on the market, or grab one of the plentiful .40 trade ins out there and buy a 9mm slide or barrel.

Or save up for the Legion SAO, real nice!

ms6852 said:

Para ordnance has their tactical recon 18 round double stack magazines and a rail as well.
https://www.para-usa.com/firearms/tactical/black-ops-recon-9mm.html

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Is Para their own company again? I have an R1 double stack from when Para was owned by Rem, very nice shooter and 15+1 of .45 is always welcome, wish I had gotten one with a rail though for HD and a tac light.

Here is the Beretta 92a1
https://shoot-straight.com/product/beretta-92a1-j9a9f10/

This is a helluva lot of gun for the dollar. I have one and it’s been stellar and is a bit overbuilt compared to a regular 92fs.

The only all metal pistols that meets your requirements that I'd buy is something from the Sig 226 family. Or a BHP or clone thereof.

You can dislike plastic if you want, but that is the future. The classic all steel pistols will probably always be around, but designs made from aluminum alloy are slowly dying off. I believe that in my lifetime there will be a day when such pistols are no longer available new. Plastic does everything they do, and does it better.

jmr40 said:

The only all metal pistols that meets your requirements that I'd buy is something from the Sig 226 family. Or a BHP or clone thereof.

You can dislike plastic if you want, but that is the future. The classic all steel pistols will probably always be around, but designs made from aluminum alloy are slowly dying off. I believe that in my lifetime there will be a day when such pistols are no longer available new. Plastic does everything they do, and does it better.

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The BHP has never been available with a rail which is a must for the OP. PS it is already discontinued by FN. The only version you can get is a sketchy Turkish clone. Some of the P226s fit the bill and for the most part are still good guns. I personally prefer the older non-railed versions. I don't like weapon mounted lights but that is purely a personal preference.

fireside44 said:

I'm not enthused by polymer guns.

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Fair enough. Nothing wrong with not liking something for no other reason than you just don't like it.

If you are not dead set on new, Ruger P89s are ultra reliable and built like a tank.

I think even a Combat Engineer would have a hard time breaking one and they can break the unbreakable.

Oh, crap. No rail, though.

cslinger said:

Here is the Beretta 92a1
https://shoot-straight.com/product/beretta-92a1-j9a9f10/

This is a helluva lot of gun for the dollar. I have one and it’s been stellar and is a bit overbuilt compared to a regular 92fs.

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One question because I am not a Beretta guy but besides the rail and different sights What makes the 92A1 more robust.

The sp01 that I have has been a fantastic gun

Tanfoglio Elite Match (SAO) or Stock 3 (DA/SA). Both have rails, both are quite heavy steel frames (the Stock III especially so), very, very accurate guns. Trigger may be good out of the box or may be crunchy, but a gunsmith can make either very good.

fireside44 said:

Where did you gather that I disliked it? I looked at, and have shot glocks, xd, a couple other ccw size pieces as well. I was hot on a Glock for a minute until I see what I can get for similar prices. I come from revolver world. It just doesn't enthuse me when I compare them to steel offerings. I really liked the CZ p-09 but the 75 is steel, and legendary and proven. So really I'm looking at a cz75, a Beretta or copy, or some 1911. It's ok if polymer is the future, it's just not my future.

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I think JMR's point was specific to aluminum alloy-framed pistols, not steel frames. Steel frames offer advantages over polymer in certain aspects of performance, and polymer offers advantages over steel in certain aspects (weight primarily). Alloy doesn't really do anything that polymer (with a steel inner frame) cannot, and doesn't offer the longevity or recoil-damping of steel. It's kind of a tweener at this point.

fireside44 said:

As little as possible, as much as necessary. I haven't bought a gun in 8 years. I just had my first turn-the-handle hot bath in almost four years yesterday. Been busting my hump, the pistol is a personal reward for my efforts so if I want to spend 1500 bucks my old lady can kick rocks. But a 1500 buck pistol would leave me in the negative for mags and ammo and the woman will surely get me back with her own spending habits and then I'ma kick rocks myself. If I kept the gun under 7-8 hundred I can justify a new used revolver in .38 later this year because I "went cheap" and she can't view my cash ammo purchases, lol.



Thanks for very informative post. I must be browsing all the wrong stores for guns because I cannot find a cz shadow 2 for less than 1100 bucks. I guess I need to look beyond buds and academy.

.

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There is a guy on Gun Broker who often has them at the $1000 mark with shipping. He is a very good source for Dan Wesson and CZs.

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=143189&PageSize=25

WVsig said:

Lots of confusing terminology being used in these posts. @I6turbo when you say Shadow are your referring to the out of production CZ 75 Shadow or the Shadow 2? I am going to assume you are referring to the Shadow 2.

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Yes, the Shadow 2 that the OP is considering.

I am not sure how the SP01 which is essentially a factory 75B in a different frame is going to have a better trigger out of the box than a Shadow 2?

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I didn't say that a SP-01 would have a better trigger out of the box. I said that IME it'd have a better trigger with the CGW Pro Package in it. My 85 Combat has essentially the Pro Package (though I arrived at it in a different way) plus SAO, and based upon the couple of Shadow 2 and Tactical Sport Orange models I've handled, the trigger and action makes those guns feel like a stock 75B by comparison -- still a relative lot of camming back and a relatively heavy trigger pull.

To be clear, I don't OWN the Shadow 2 or TSO. I only have the CZ handguns in the photo that I posted above (85 Combat, SP-01, PCR, P-01, 75B, 97B, and some Kadet Kits). Re: the Shadow and TSO, I've only handled them, racked the slide, dry-fired them a bit, etc., which is enough to understand the trigger, but not how they actually shoot.

For range shooting, I'm sure I'd like a Shadow 2 or TSO, but I'm also pretty sure it'd end up with CGW parts in it. My recommendation for the SP-01 and CGW kit for the OP here was based partly on his thinking that a Shadow 2 might also come with a divorce, which would make it infinitely more expensive in several ways.

My first choice would be a SIG-Sauer P226 or P229, then a CZ or an EAA Witness. Third place for a Beretta 92.
There are others interesting options like the Stoeger Cougar and the turkish clones of the CZ 75 and of the Browning HP35.
There is also the 1911 option.

The slide is a bit thicker (I believe I read it’s basically a 96 slide and it has a small recoil buffer.). I think the 90-2 was originally designed around the .40 and scaled down and the 92A1 was as well vs the older 96’s being scaled up 9mms and not being super robust.

I6turbo said:

Yes, the Shadow 2 that the OP is considering.


I didn't say that a SP-01 would have a better trigger out of the box. I said that IME it'd have a better trigger with the CGW Pro Package in it. My 85 Combat has essentially the Pro Package (though I arrived at it in a different way) plus SAO, and based upon the couple of Shadow 2 and Tactical Sport Orange models I've handled, the trigger and action makes those guns feel like a stock 75B by comparison -- still a relative lot of camming back and a relatively heavy trigger pull.

To be clear, I don't OWN the Shadow 2 or TSO. I only have the CZ handguns in the photo that I posted above (85 Combat, SP-01, PCR, P-01, 75B, 97B, and some Kadet Kits). Re: the Shadow and TSO, I've only handled them, racked the slide, dry-fired them a bit, etc., which is enough to understand the trigger, but not how they actually shoot.

For range shooting, I'm sure I'd like a Shadow 2 or TSO, but I'm also pretty sure it'd end up with CGW parts in it. My recommendation for the SP-01 and CGW kit for the OP here was based partly on his thinking that a Shadow 2 might also come with a divorce, which would make it infinitely more expensive in several ways.

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Understood! I missunderstood what you were saying. A SP01 runs about $600 a CGW Pro Package done by them would be about $550 including freight both ways without the 10X bushing. So a full CGW Pro with 10X bushing is going to run $600 + $620. A Shadow 2 runs about $1000-$1100 depending on a few factors. If I had to choose a stock Shadow 2 vs 75B or SP01 full CGW I would take the 75B. That however is not an apples to apples comparison because add another $500 to the Shadow 2 and you can have a full CGW Pro Shadow 2. I have both. If I had to choose one I would choose the 75B because it is a better all around gun. For me it could serve as a carry piece where the Shadow 2 is a range/steel challenge/home defense gun. The SP01 does not fit my hands so it would not be my choice. This is my CGW 75B.