Why did Simonov not use en-bloc clips for the SKS?

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Kano383

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The SKS is basically a scaled-down PTRS41 anti-tank rifle. That rifle used en-bloc clips containing five rounds, and loaded from the bottom of the magazine: you opened the magazine (à-la-SKS, same latch...), removed the empty clip (not sure if it fell free), slid in a new clip, which was holding up by its own spring tension, slammed the magazine close and you were ready to go.

To me, this seems easier to do than to fumble with stripper clips. I know that one can get pretty fast with stripper clips, but I don't think that you can maintain speed in contorted positions...

What prompted Simonov to abandon the en-bloc clip, and go for stripper clips instead? Cost? Simplicity of manufacture?

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PTRS41 clips with Garand clips for scale
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My guess would be frustration with the existing system. Better to charge from top rather than in the dirt, and no reliance on items easily distorted, lost or fumbled. M14 also ditched en bloc clips, and they have not been used for new designs since the 40s, IIRC.
 
Just my personal experience but I much prefer loading with stripper clips over en-bloc clips. I have multiple Garands as well as several Carcanos which load en-bloc. The Carcanos eject from the bottom and the system does not work as good as the Garand but in my opinion the lack of ability to top off the magazine easily is a deal killer.
 
What prompted Simonov to abandon the en-bloc clip, and go for stripper clips instead?
Do you really think Soviet arms designers had the freedom that Western arms designers had? What probably prompted Simonov to go with stripper clips for the SKS was the Director of Tula Arsenal saying "you will use stripper clips for the rifle, and you will enjoy it!" Keep in mind they were concurrently designing the AK and it's support systems; the stripper clips work for both, when used with the guide made for the AK, and of course, slide right into the top of the bolt carrier on the SKS.
 
Usually some form of simplicity, reliability and economics comes into play when deciphering why a given system was favored over another.
 
Russian weapon design has always been basic, functional and reliable. Precision, not so much.

I can see them pondering this and deciding a semi-automatic rifle that can be fully loaded with or without a cartridge carrier would be superior to one dependent on one. I can fully load my SKS from a handful of loose cartridges and nothing else. Without an en bloc clip, my M1 Garand is nothing more than a single shot.
 
The requirement for the new rifle/carbine was for a 10 round capacity, which was likely going to be a complicated geometry given the curve required.
Also, the stripper clip magazine was single-feed, which is easier to design a bolt around--en bloc clips almost mandate double-feed bolt design.
 
I’m guessing that it’s because most bolt action rifles used this successfully before.

Military technology tends to change a little at a time because the military mind tends to stick with tested ideas, concepts and weapons rather than completely new tech which may or may not work.

The same thing was seen in the FN Model 1949 and the MAS 49/56.

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I know that one can get pretty fast with stripper clips, but I don't think that you can maintain speed in contorted positions...

What prompted Simonov to abandon the en-bloc clip, and go for stripper clips instead? Cost? Simplicity of manufacture?
Top off is the key here I believe in IMHO.
+1. Hard to top off with clips. Stripper use seemed simple and fast enough for me

 
Stripper clips have several advantages if you have used both. Easier to load on clip, easier to load into rifle if you value your thumb, It can be topped off. There is no tell tall clink when you are empty, easier to carry because they are flatter. Probably cheaper and more reusable. Just some of my thoughts.
 
Because *topping-off* SUCKS for the en-bloc clip scenario and free-feeding is too often nigh-on impossible in a tactical situation.

Todd.
 
Can you manually load a Garand without the en bloc clips? Because loading an SKS without stripper clips is easy - just slower. The bolt hold-back keeps the bolt out of your way. I hate the idea that, without your clips, the rifle is useless.

This, the higher round capacity, the the handiness of the rifle (especially the Chinese version), and the round itself, is why I think the SKS is what the Garand should have been. .276 Peterson is not far off 7.62x39 in performance, and it is a lighter round that is easier to carry and with less recoil. With a TechSight, it is like a mini-Garand. Yes, I know - heresy.
 
A note, compared to the Garand: the PTRS41 clips were loaded from the bottom, and from the look of things you could top-up from above (though I doubt this would be practical since the bolt hold-open is only activated by the follower after the last round), and you could load single rounds.

I can see where en-bloc clips are bulkier than stripper clips, and that's one more variable that remains in the rifle and can potentially jam if the clip is bent. With stripper clips, your mag/lips configuration does not change with each reload.

On the other hand, I have noticed that whenever there are no stripper clips available, or in any situation where the rifle is to be loaded with no round in the chamber, users refill the mag from the bottom. Where I live, there are thousands of these rifles deployed with Private Security outfits, and the armorers have long found out that loading from the top is a sure recipe for AD/ND/Bang-Ooops.

I have also discussed with several ex-military or ex-paramilitary Chinese, and they all have said that they loaded the SKS from the bottom.

This practice has three noticeable consequences.

One, if the rounds are inserted in the wrong order, i.e. with the last round on the right of the follower instead of the left, the mag will refuse to close - until you vigorously hammer it closed, which is what these guys do. As a result, every single one of the SKS that I have inspected here had the follower bent.

Two, with a bent follower, you lose the bolt hold-open feature.

And three, when the rounds are loaded with the last round in the wrong position, by the time you shoot the last-but-one round, the last one flies out of the mag and is ejected instead of being chambered. This happened to none other than Jerry Miculek in one of his videos: he was surprised by this behavior and laughed it off, probably dismissing it as a cheap commie rifle's quirk (which goes to show that no matter how long you are in the firearms business, one can't ever know everything...).
 
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Accounts I've read (and I certainly don't think I've read everything on the subject) was the PTRS-41 had a low service life and reliability than the bolt action single shot PTRD-41. I've seen some PTRD-41 rifles still being used in sniper & countersniper service in the Middle East.

So I think anything associated with the features of the PTRS-41 other than being semiautomatic wasn't viewed favorably, but something different than bolt action was the direction to go with the SKS.
 
Stripper clips have several advantages if you have used both. Easier to load on clip, easier to load into rifle if you value your thumb, It can be topped off. There is no tell tall clink when you are empty, easier to carry because they are flatter. Probably cheaper and more reusable. Just some of my thoughts.
Clips or strippers, both are easily loaded.

From the sounds of it, there are a lot of people who were never taught to properly load an M1. I started shooting one around 10 years old, and the only time since then that I had my thumb stuck in one, was when the old man was pissed, and we were being punished. Only happened a couple of times (great old USMC DI motivator. Insert thumb, close bolt, hold gun by thumb at arms length until told to let it down) and we quickly caught on. :)

Ive got about a bazillion rounds through an M1 shooting them in matches from the 70's on, and cant ever remember getting my thumb caught or even bothered by the bolt while shooting it as it was meant to be shot.

The down side is the topping off thing, but they can still be topped off with loose rounds, if you choose, but why bother? Pop the clip and insert a new one.

The biggest downside to them though, is if you dont have a clip. Then it is a single shot rifle. No way around that.

As far as which is more robust? The clip is the winner by a mile there. Neither were ment to be reused, but the clips are a lot more robust than the strippers.

A big annoyance with the SKS's is using strippers that have been reused repeatedly, and have loosened up. You rarely get 10 rounds in the gun because of it, especially if youre loading from pouches. The rounds often fall off in the pouches, and on the way to the gun from them.

The Russians heard the cursing of American soldiers in ww2 when they got their thumb bit. Siminov saw a better way.
Really? See above.

Can you manually load a Garand without the en bloc clips? Because loading an SKS without stripper clips is easy - just slower. The bolt hold-back keeps the bolt out of your way. I hate the idea that, without your clips, the rifle is useless.
You can just drop an empty clip into the Garand, and load rounds under it. You wont get 8 in the gun, but youll get 6 or 7. As I said above, whats the point though, if you have loaded clips? Pop the clip thats low, or insert a full one. If you dont have a full clip, then you load it as described, and start looking for loaded clips.
 
Why did Simonov not use en-blocs clips for the SKS?

Well, it's a little late to ask him, but countries at war are always short of raw materials, perhaps there's less steel in a stripper clip? Being able to easily load loose rounds is a plus, as many have mentioned.
 
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