Accuracy with a .38 snub-nose

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Interesting thread. I have a ruger LCR. I try to use it at least once per month at the range. I commit that day to only my small guns, the Ruger and a P938. I love to carry the ruger. It is light and nothing can wrong with it. But man, it takes some doing to get consistent with it. I shoot at 8 inch steel plates. It takes a few rounds to get it on target. I limit myself to 7 yards with it. Anything more and I just can't get any consistency; at least not where I am shooting relatively quickly.

Somebody above said Practice. Ya, I can't agree more. I need to shoot that thing every time I go to the range so it becomes second nature. The sig is a different story. Much easier to shoot.
 
My 637-2 is a bear with pretty much any load. With practice, I've gotten much better though.

I really hated laser grips on every other gun I've used them, but CT laser grips help with the ergonomics and quick aiming on those lightweight J-Frames.
 
One thing we do that has been a great practice for me is we do what we call a 5-5-5 drill. We shoot a 5 inch plate at 5 yards and you bring your gun from a holstered or pocketed concealed position and hit the target 5 times in 5 seconds. With a little practice, it is not hard to do, but you do have to practice. With a J frame, I'm betting the recoil is too severe for him to get back on target. There are good defense rounds out there that have light recoil and will still perform well. I do much better with our drill using a K frame than I do with a J frame even using light ammo.
The slightly heavier frame keeps me more steady. If I'm not real careful with the lighter gun, I will get jerky.
Also make sure the grips fit his hands correctly. This could be a major cause of not being able to handle the gun well
 
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I own a S&W Model 36 snubbie (.38 Special) that I could barely hit the ground with,,,
Then I purchased a S&W Model 34 snubbie (.22 LR) and things changed.

With inexpensive .22 ammo I started shooting without using the sights,,,
Just hold the gun low and whip it up for a triple-tap.

It took an entire summer of practice but now I can hit rather well with the Model 36,,,
I just had to learn to point shoot rather than try to use the sights.

I could probably have accomplished the same thing without the Model 34,,,
But it would have cost me a lot more in ammo to do so.

Interestingly enough,,,
I also own a 3" model 36,,,
I never had the problem with that gun,,,
And except for the extra 1" they are identical.

Aarond

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You can learn an awful lot by dry firing a DA revolver with a laser sight on it.
Barrow one if you can to see what I mean.
I used to teach a pistol class and I would demonstrate how much people would wobble during the pull.
First thing I would do is shoot the gun off of a sandbag to see how truly accurate it is and go from there with a laser sight if you can afford one, then practice, practice, practice.
 
my own solution to doing ok with airweight 38 snubbies is to do what others here suggest: shoot soft ammo (wadcutters and cbc shorts by magtech, both more easily obtained online or at gun shows) and swap out grips for something that gives 3 finger purchase (bigger than stock grips still perfectly fine holstered as ccw). since these are defensive pieces i don’t worry too much about 12” groups at 30’. i try for 6” groups at 20’ and 3” groups at 10’, which are more legally defensible, practical defensive distances. also my practice seems better when shooting outdoors at clay targets or empty sodapop cans on the ground: i can move my shooting stance, i can more easily spot my rounds hitting dirt and i can see a reaction when i hit the target.

if none of the above were available i would change my 38 revolver to a heavier non-alloy one to better absorb recoil, with a hammer for more accurate single action shooting. a non-ultraweight, steel 2” taurus 85 or 856 is a reliable, good value, concealable choice.
 
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i try for 6” groups at 20’ and 3” groups at 10’, which are more legally defensible, practical defensive distances.
Ten to fifteen feet is much more likely, and more defensible in a defense of justification, than thirty.

Three inch groups would indicate shooting much too slowly to score several hits on a charging target, and they are not necessary.
 
Ten to fifteen feet is much more likely, and more defensible in a defense of justification, than thirty.

Three inch groups would indicate shooting much too slowly to score several hits on a charging target, and they are not necessary.

actually i try to measure my groups in two shot double taps at closer distances. measuring the grouping of all five or six shot is target shooting, not defensive practice, for me anyway. i’ve never had to do it in real life, but i guess at ten feet in a dynamic self defense situation all i would have time for is two reliable and accurate shots from a revolver before i shortstroke it.
 
What makes you confident that two shots will slow anyone down sufficiently?
i don’t know the answer, never been there, but i didn’t say that i would stop shooting after two shots in a dynamic, self defense scenario. i said that at ten feet i can double tap quickly without shortstroking, i.e. failing to reset the trigger. anyway, during practice sessions i do two fast shots, check my group, then continue. it’s my thing with snubbie revolvers, may not work for others.
 
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A year or so ago I was setting on my back porch carrying a Taurus 85 snubby when a groundhog showed itself at the timberline some 30 yards away. Wishing I had a rifle I pulled the 38. I didn’t hit him in 5 tries but I kicked up dirt not more than 5 inches from him. Amazing I thought, so proud of the little gun. I carry it about 1/2 of the time. It consistently does a 3” group at 20’
 
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If you can put all five onto a small paper plate at seven yards quickly, you are probably okay.

K-frames shoot way easier than J-frames.

Steel frames shoot way easier than aluminum.

Smooth triggers shoot way easier than rough ones.

I shoot my Airweight just fine. I shoot my LCR better because the trigger is better.

Bigger grips help.

There is no substitute for practice.

My steel K-frame snub will outshoot every snub I have ever shot every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
 
I am all for getting the suggested 148gr wadcutter loads and trying them. They are very easy to shoot. I once loaded some of the 124gr lead 9mm bullets I cast in 38 cases with just 3grs of Bullseye powder and shot those from my Taurus model 85 snub. Those were fun and about as painless as shooting 32 S&W long ammo. I need to load up more of those with maybe just 3.5grs of Bullseye. They make really nice practice loads.
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I'm sure I'll get plenty of argument but if you can shoot 148 gr Wadcutters accurately you could do a lot worse when it comes to defensive loads. 16" penetration and a shape that tends to disrupt more tissue than most other standard pressure rounds (as it's hard to find one that expands unless it's to light to penetrate).

If you don't have a lot of revolver experience a J-Frame Snubby likely isn't the best learning tool. The first time I shot a model 60 (only a few weeks back) I put 5 rounds into a golf ball sized group at 5 yards with a 1.0 second per round pace. Needless to say I bought one. But I had a lot of time shooting revolvers before that and I still don't much care for the LW Models (which is why I had not bought one before).

Try mixing some snap caps into his revolver and have him slow down his shooting and concentrate on one smooth trigger pull In a rolling motion and seeing the muzzleflash through the sight picture while still on the bullseye.
 
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At 10 yards, not all my shots are in the target either with a snub in a quick point and shoot drill. 7 yards is a better distance.

Installing A full size grip on the gun might help

This, and more practice, start closer, and be sure trigger discipline is proper.
 
A fella came in to our store one time with a Charter Arms, Undercover. He said it wasn't very accurate and he couldn't hit anything with it. The owner asked him if he would let me shoot it since I was a bullseye team member, so I did. I put up a NRA fifty foot small bore 50ft. target at 50 feet and proceeded to put 5 shots into the 10 ring which of course obliterated the 8,9, and 10 rings, all touching, which of course amazed even me. The guy owned the gun was watching all the time and when he saw the target he said that it was obvious that it wasn’t the guns fault that he couldn't hit anything with it.
I tried to buy that little gun from him but after seeing the target he said no way. He instead would have to learn how to shoot it.
Oh well.
 
I'm sure I'll get plenty of argument but if you can shoot 148 gr Wadcutters accurately you could do a lot worse when it comes to defensive loads. 16" penetration and a shape that tends to disrupt more tissue than most other standard pressure rounds (as it's hard to find one that expands unless it's to light to penetrate).
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I agree 100%. I recommend a 148gr Wadcutter target bullet to a lot of people who are just starting out with a revolver for carry. The soft lead makes a pretty lethal load. It will penetrate and if it hits something vital, it will deform and cause a lot of damage. At least until you have mastered the light load and might want to advance to something a little hotter. There is nothing wrong with a wadcutter for defense shooting. The best bullet for self defense is the one you can shoot the best. As a long time shooter once told me and I repeat this often, "A hit with a 22 is much more deadly than a miss with a 44 Magnum".
 
The lasers are something I think are really more of a detriment than they are a help. They may work well and look like they will help you to hit better, but using them on a static target at the range, is something totally different than using them under stress and with things moving fast.

They force you to try and focus on all the wrong things, and have you "trying" to find that silly dot, when all your attention should be focused on shooting the target. Its just something else to distract you from what you need to do.

At the distances you would likely be using one, youre much better served learning to shoot quickly, over the top of the gun without the sights, than you are trying to do it with that dot. Ill guarantee you, youll make faster and better hits doing so.
IMHO the laser is a great training aid BUT and that's a huge one. They should almost never be used at a static target with live ammo.
They are fantastic for ingraining trigger control into muscle memory. The ability to hold the dot still and rapidly and repeatedly stroke the trigger will pay huge dividends.
Also the ability to point the gun at an object from various positions and then activating the laser to give visual reference will hone your point shooting greatly.
Once you've practiced these two things and have a good mastery of them you will find live fire much improved and you wont be searching for the dot.

The caveat is shooting an airweight snub well requires some hand strength and dexterity when my father was 75 he got pretty good with a DA snub. Now that he's 90 he just can't shoot one worth a dang had to switch to a larger 9mm.
 
They should almost never be used at a static target with live ammo.
Yet that seems to be how you see most people who have them shooting with them, and what they base their skills on. And they are always so proud of those tight little groups. :)

At most distances they are likely to be used, you really dont need "any" sights, and looking for and trying to find that dot just wastes precious time. Time you should be shooting.

I can see your points on working on trigger control and indexing, as long as you dont come to need that as a crutch. I do think if you plan on using one, you should practice with it with live ammo, as the experience is very different than it is when dry firing, so much more so if youre shooting quickly and moving at all.

I know when I try and shoot with one, by the way that dot is going, it looks like Katharine Hepburn
in her later years, was holding the gun. Makes me dizzy. :)
 
My father in law has a Smith and Wesson .38 special +p revolver and he has not been happy with his accuracy. It is his carry weapon and at ten yards he can get most shots somewhere on the black but there is always a few that aren't. That makes us nervous because if he ever did have to use it in a defense situation you don't want projectiles not on target.

He uses Winchester 130 grain FMJ for target shooting and I would say it holds a 10-12" group at 10 yards with a few fliers that are off target or not even on paper. I studied his trigger pull and also loaded a cylinder with rounds and empty Chambers to see if he flinches and his technique and form are good.

I know these are not made to be tackdrivers, but what is reasonable accuracy one should expect at that distance? Is there a different ammo or weight of bullet we should try for the length barrel? I would say the barrel is 1.5 to 2". Maybe we should be training at a shorter distance?

Thanks for the help!

130 grain FMJ has a lousy reputation. Even Gov't agencies that issued the stuff shot their qualifications with 148 grain HBWCs and one agency I know preferred reloaded 158 grain SWCs. I know this because I've got 300 rounds of Winchester Western Match ammo that they traded for our range master's reloads (the local Air Guard security troopers used our SO range for qualifications.) Just sayin'
 
Yet that seems to be how you see most people who have them shooting with them, and what they base their skills on. And they are always so proud of those tight little groups.
Agree and they usually learn the terrible method of SLOWLY staging the trigger.
I do think if you plan on using one, you should practice with it with live ammo, as the experience is very different than it is when dry firing, so much more so if youre shooting quickly and moving at all
Absolutely , didn't mean to imply otherwise, just turn the laser off.
 
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