Lee Expander die vs Cop die on Hornady LnL AP

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Crazy Horse

Crazy Horse

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Hello,

I just purchased a Hornady LnL AP. My previous press was Lyman American 8. I love the Lyman, but for pistol rounds, Keeping up with my shooting frequency was getting difficult. I know the turret press is seen as a hybrid between a single stage press and a full progressive press. So, after research I decided on the Hornady LnL.

I was setting up the press and purchased a Hornady powder cop die after watching the Brownell's setup video. I use Lee carbide dies and love the cost simplicity and accuracy Lee dies offer.

Because I use the Lee powder through expander die when reloading on my Lyman, I though the powder measure and case activated powder drop from Hornady expanded the case before seating as well. This is not the case.

I then put the Lee expander die after the powder drop to expand the case before seating. Two youtube videos have the powder cop die after the powder drop. My dilemma is that I can only have the expander die or powder cop die in the press. Of course, with the Lee 4 die set, I have the seater die and a seperate taper crimp die.

I purchased the Hornady PTX expander last night. I believe this part goes inside the case activated powder drop so that It drops powder and expands the die in one motion.

In the meantime, I wanted to try the press. Can anyone provide a recommendation on the best way to setup the press? I have the Lee 4 die set (1. deprimer&resize, 2. Expander, 3. Seat, 4. Crimp). From Hornady I have the powder cop die. Should I forego the Powder Cop die and use the expander die? Or, would it be better to forego the taper crimp die and setup the seating die to crimp at the same time (I'm used to seating then crimping, but I've read that you can seat and crimp with the same die)? If that is better, what are the steps?

Thanks in advance for any help as I don't of anyone that reloads in my area, and while I have experience reloading it can be difficult when working with a new press, Youtube helps only so much as getting pics of certain steps isn't always focused on in video.
 
Crazy Horse said:
Hello,

I just purchased a Hornady LnL AP. My previous press was Lyman American 8. I love the Lyman, but for pistol rounds, Keeping up with my shooting frequency was getting difficult. I know the turret press is seen as a hybrid between a single stage press and a full progressive press. So, after research I decided on the Hornady LnL.

I was setting up the press and purchased a Hornady powder cop die after watching the Brownell's setup video. I use Lee carbide dies and love the cost simplicity and accuracy Lee dies offer.

Because I use the Lee powder through expander die when reloading on my Lyman, I though the powder measure and case activated powder drop from Hornady expanded the case before seating as well. This is not the case.

I then put the Lee expander die after the powder drop to expand the case before seating. Two youtube videos have the powder cop die after the powder drop. My dilemma is that I can only have the expander die or powder cop die in the press. Of course, with the Lee 4 die set, I have the seater die and a seperate taper crimp die.

I purchased the Hornady PTX expander last night. I believe this part goes inside the case activated powder drop so that It drops powder and expands the die in one motion.

In the meantime, I wanted to try the press. Can anyone provide a recommendation on the best way to setup the press? I have the Lee 4 die set (1. deprimer&resize, 2. Expander, 3. Seat, 4. Crimp). From Hornady I have the powder cop die. Should I forego the Powder Cop die and use the expander die? Or, would it be better to forego the taper crimp die and setup the seating die to crimp at the same time (I'm used to seating then crimping, but I've read that you can seat and crimp with the same die)? If that is better, what are the steps?

Thanks in advance for any help as I don't of anyone that reloads in my area, and while I have experience reloading it can be difficult when working with a new press, Youtube helps only so much as getting pics of certain steps isn't always focused on in video.
Click to expand...
If you are loading handgun ammo and you can see the powder before placing a bullet (load standing up or using a mirror),, you can certainly forgo the powder cop.

In general though, Lee dies don't work so well on an LnL AP, because the threaded part is not quite long enough, and putting the "lock" nut underneath is a sort of a hack. Also, a powder cop is only as good as your discipline in watching it. An RCBS lock-out die would serve better, but it too can be eliminated, if you are careful to view the powder charge before seating a bullet. Needing to see the charge can influence your choice of powders.
 
I run the powder cop die all the time since I load rifle rounds on the press too. This keeps you in the habit of looking at it at all times. I use PTX on all my handgun calibers. I also have the powder die base for each one, all setup and ready to go. This way I do not have to make any adjustments when I change calibers. If you go this way you want to set the PTX stop and NEVER touch it again. If you do tweak it, it impacts all you setups. So it's best to take the extra time and adj the base vs the PTX stop.

In you case you did not mention what caliber you were loading. With most all handgun ammo you can see into the brass when you seat the bullet. So you could do without it. The other option like you mentioned is to seat and crimp in the seating die. A lot of people do it, nothing wrong with it, just makes setting up the die a little more difficult.m
 
Sorry, I'm reloading for the 45 acp.

If I seat and crimp with the same Lee die, would the steps be 1. de-prime/resize, 2. powder drop, 3. powder cop, 4. expand, 5. seat/crimp? Do steps 3&4 matter in the order?

Also, Realgun mentioned Lee dies not being long enough. I tested out each die (haven't gone through all the processes in one motion) and while they were seated lower I was able to seat them and use the Hornady lock-out washers with no issues. Just want to make sure I'm not doing something wrong. I have only Lee dies and would prefer to use my existing dies vs having to buy new ones.

TIA
 
It will work in either order. Do what works best for you. Or you could expand in station 2, which would move the powder dispenser more to the side and easier to get to. I prefer to seat the bullet in station 4 since its right in front making it easy to peek inside to check for powder.

If your using the Hornady split licking rings you good to go, provided you have something to tighten to.
 
Good point, it is a tight fit with the powder dispenser in station 2. Moving it to station 3 would definitely provide more room. THX.

Funny a progressive bench seems to require more tweaking than a turret press. I'm thinking though, that once it's set, it can be left alone until you change out bullet type.
 
Crazy Horse said:
Hello,

Can anyone provide a recommendation on the best way to setup the press? I have the Lee 4 die set (1. deprimer&resize, 2. Expander, 3. Seat, 4. Crimp). From Hornady I have the powder cop die. Should I forego the Powder Cop die and use the expander die? Or, would it be better to forego the taper crimp die and setup the seating die to crimp at the same time (I'm used to seating then crimping, but I've read that you can seat and crimp with the same die)? If that is better, what are the steps?
Click to expand...

The PTX expander was created to save a station.....powder thru expanding, for use with a pistol bullet feeder, which you probably don't have yet. But as you found out 5 stations just aren't enough if you use want to use a powder cop and a separate crimper, let alone a bullet feeder too. My fix was to make a video powder cop using a Chinese-made video camera and a 5" screen (think automobile backup camera kits), the camera glued in a spot underneath the dies that is out of the way of the moving shell plate. Mine was a RCBS pro 2000, but others have copied the idea using Hornady's AP.

I use the Hornady powder measure linkage under my green powder measure, and PTX's because RCBS didn't make a PTX at the time. They do now, and I find the RCBS PTX's are pretty interchangeable, only requiring a vertical adjustment to the linkage on the powder measure. The advantage of the new RCBS one's is that they have a "M" die style second expander.....which makes a 1/16" deep shelf for the bullet to sit in, so it doesn't wobble or lean while advancing to the seating station.

Unless they have improved them, the Hornady PTX just bells, and the bullets wobble....so advance carefully and slowly to keep bullets straight enough to feed the seater straight. The Lee expander is worse in that department.....having a shallower bell.
 
With the turret press, I use the RCBS chargemaster light. I do have a Lyman powder dispenser, but found that I constantly had to add or take away a grain, which slows things down.

How accurate is the Hornady powder dispenser? I use CFE pistol and it meters really well. I can lower the press to visually inspect.

The thing with a turret press, is the danger is double charging. I wouldn't think it would be a problem with a progressive press as it progresses with each pull of the handle.

So the PTX expander is to be used with the bullet feeder? I though the expander was to be put inside the powder dispenser die?

Based on what I'm reading, I'm thinking that I should be able to make some test rounds today with what I have on hand (I was thinking I had to wait until the PTX expander I ordered came in), by using the Lee expander and foregoing the Powder Cop (visually inspecting the drop instead).

THX
 
Crazy Horse said:
With the turret press, I use the RCBS chargemaster light. I do have a Lyman powder dispenser, but found that I constantly had to add or take away a grain, which slows things down.

How accurate is the Hornady powder dispenser? I use CFE pistol and it meters really well. I can lower the press to visually inspect.

The thing with a turret press, is the danger is double charging. I wouldn't think it would be a problem with a progressive press as it progresses with each pull of the handle.

So the PTX expander is to be used with the bullet feeder? I though the expander was to be put inside the powder dispenser die?

Based on what I'm reading, I'm thinking that I should be able to make some test rounds today with what I have on hand (I was thinking I had to wait until the PTX expander I ordered came in), by using the Lee expander and foregoing the Powder Cop (visually inspecting the drop instead).

THX
Click to expand...

You don't have to have a bullet feeder, but the PTX was created for it.....in fact, when you buy a Hornady bullet feed die for a particular caliber, a PTX comes with it. And yes the PTX goes inside the lower linkage of the Powder Measure. The whole purpose from Hornady's view for the PTX is to expand and charge in one station so you could expand and drop in station 2, bullet feed in 3, seat in 4 and crimp in 5.......or powder cop in 3, bullet feed in 4, and seat and crimp together in 5.

I don't like to seat and crimp together, but yet I like the idea of a powder cop or lock-out die......so I created the video powder cop that didn't use a precious station.

My latest progressive is the Pro Chucker 7.....so now I can have my cake and eat it too.;) What's funny is I ended up using the 7 for rifle, and still use my Pro 2000 5 station press for pistol, with it's video powder cop, and ptx's....go figure. The seven stations came in handy for using an "M" die for rifle.....everybody has their priorities, and quirks. You just need some time and patience to figure out your new toy and use it the best way for you......have fun......once you figure it out, you will not miss your turret.
 
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I have always had mine setup with expander in station 2 and the powder drop in #3.

I tried using a powder COP die and found it to generally be just as easy to look inside the case when setting the bullet and verify the powder vs. watching the die.
 
You asked about p.m accuracy....the RCBS Uniflow and the Hornady P.M. are nearly identical designs, that's why I got away with using a Hornady Progressive linkage on the green one. Both measures (in fact most meaures) are best with ball powder, but to tell you the truth, I've never worried about a 10th of a grain or two.....I can't see it on the target, least not with Unique, which is a flake powder as hard to repeat as they come. I've also never been able to tell the difference on the target between throws of 4350 either even on throws that cut a "log" or two. ;) Just learn to work the press handle the same every stroke....that's the key to close enough throws.

I have to add that Double Alpha now makes a PTX for Hornady's AP, that's better than the Uniquetec one or the Hornady one......it has the "M" die step where you don't have the flare that makes a bullet wobble or lean....notice the 1/16" step.....you don't have to over flare....just a touch, and it sits straight and true.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/hornady-lnl-powder-funnel
hornady-lnl-powder-funnel.jpg
See the shiny ring just before it bevels outward...that expands it just a tad more to let the bullet sit inside straight...you don't need all that flare just touch the flare enough to start the bullet.....way easier on the brass.
 
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Texas10mm, GW Staar,

From reading, it seems like the PTX has to be used with the bullet feeder vs putting it in the powder drop. Unfortunate as I was thinking you could drop the powder and expand the case in one stroke. But because the case has to activate the charger, it's not possible.

I had seen the items you listed last night, but when I clicked on the link (totally different post) it was a dead link.

Thank you for the information as I typically load Powder Coated lead. I think I'm going to go with the double alpha. It's 3 dollars cheaper.

In the meantime, I'm going to forego the powder cop (to test out the press) and use the Lee expander in station 2. Have the powder drop in station 3, then seat, then crimp.

I guess I had gotten a bit spoiled with the Lyman American 8. With 8 die positions, I was never short of die holes. Hoping the smootheness and the automation is worth it.

Thanks again for everything. It really helps.
 
Blue68f100 said:
It will work in either order. Do what works best for you.
Click to expand...

The order absolutely DOES matter on pistol rounds. Depending on the caliber, powder, and powder volume you are using, you could be compacting the powder if your are expanding after the powder drop.

Although there is no perfect setup, I use the following

Station #1 - Sizing / De-priming Die
Station #2 - Expanding Die ( because I use a Lyman M-style 2 step expander die)
Station #3 - Powder Drop (gives you the ability to easily inspect the powder drop as plate rotates)
Station #4 - Seating Die
Station #5 - Crimp Die ( I use a FCD crimp die on most calibers here)

Lighting is a MUST and there are several lighting options that help. I use this one. Its a bit pricing but works well and is very bright at lights up the inside of each case very well. I can easily take a quick look at the powder drop before a place a bullet in the case for seating.

https://www.amazon.com/KMS-Squared-Reloading-Hornady-Presses/dp/B07DCYLJ95

I agree that if you feel you need a mechanical powder check, I would go with the RCBS lock-out die because if it is set correctly, it will stop you from advancing the shell plate.

However, most loaders will tell you that you need to be going slow enough to be paying attention to what you are doing. If you are, you shouldn't need a powder check for any pistol round. Again... not advice for you... just personal opinion that works for me and many others.

LASTLY..... if you still want to use the powder cop and a separate expanding die, then just size and prime in a separate step. Once your shells are already sized ( and primer if you choose), you can then use the following setup:

Station #1 - Expanding Die
Station #2 - Powder Drop
Station #3 - Powder Cop.
Station #4 - Seating Die
Station #5 - Crimp Die

This 2 step process really doesn't slow thing down much and it gives you the opportunity to pay more attentions to the primer seating step.

Hope this information helps. :):):)
 
Crazy Horse said:
Texas10mm, GW Staar,

From reading, it seems like the PTX has to be used with the bullet feeder vs putting it in the powder drop. Unfortunate as I was thinking you could drop the powder and expand the case in one stroke. But because the case has to activate the charger, it's not possible.

Thanks again for everything. It really helps.
Click to expand...

No, read it one more time.....the PTX goes in the powder die .... the part under the powder measure....so you drop powder while you expand the neck. The lower linkage is part of the powder die.
GW Staar said:
You don't have to have a bullet feeder, but the PTX was created for it.....in fact, when you buy a Hornady bullet feed die for a particular caliber, a PTX comes with it. And yes the PTX goes inside the lower linkage of the Powder Measure. The whole purpose from Hornady's view for the PTX is to expand and charge in one station so you could expand and drop in station 2, bullet feed in 3, seat in 4 and crimp in 5.......or powder cop in 3, bullet feed in 4, and seat and crimp together in 5.
Click to expand...

The PTX allows you to expand and drop powder in one station.....allowing an extra station to add the bullet feeder should you ever want one. That's why they include one in bullet feed dies....allowing you to eliminate the expander station. Sorry it's hard to get at first....should seen me the first month of learning my first progressive.;)

PTX drops in here: (Lower part of the activated linkage of the powder measure/powder die)

5947.jpg
 
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I'm not a huge fan of using powder through expander funnels, especially for a new AP reloader. They can be very inconsistent if you are trying to have a minimal expansion so you are not overworking your brass. Unless you have a dedicated powder drop for each caliber, its much more difficult to adjust the PTX linkage on a Hornady LNL AP than it is to just change/adjust a stand-alone expander die.
 
GW Staar said:
You asked about p.m accuracy....the RCBS Uniflow and the Hornady P.M. are nearly identical designs, that's why I got away with using a Hornady Progressive linkage on the green one. Both measures (in fact most meaures) are best with ball powder, but to tell you the truth, I've never worried about a grain or two.....I can't see it on the target, least not with Unique, which is a flake powder as hard to repeat as they come. I've also never been able to tell the difference on the target between throws of 4350 either even on throws that cut a "log" or two. ;) Just learn to work the press handle the same every stroke....that's the key to close enough throws.

I have to add that Double Alpha now makes a PTX for Hornady's AP, that's better than the Uniquetec one or the Hornady one......it has the "M" die step where you don't have the flare that makes a bullet wobble or lean....notice the 1/16" step.....you don't have to over flare....just a touch, and it sits straight and true.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/hornady-lnl-powder-funnel
View attachment 885954
See the shiny ring just before it bevels outward...that expands it just a tad more to let the bullet sit inside straight...you don't need all that flare just touch the flare enough to start the bullet.....way easier on the brass.
Click to expand...

The UniqueTek parts have the step. I've got them in all calibers for my Dillon presses.
 
A safety die you have to look at is no better than just eyeballing it. If you want a useful safety die go with a lock out die, at least it will try to stop you from doing something wrong, a powder cop die doesn't actually do anything.
I still want to eyeball the drop, even with my lock outs, they are there in case I forget. .
 
GW Staar said:
No, read it one more time.....the PTX goes in the powder die .... the part under the powder measure....so you drop powder while you expand the neck. The lower linkage is part of the powder die.


The PTX allows you to expand and drop powder in one station.....allowing an extra station to add the bullet feeder should you ever want one. That's why they include one in bullet feed dies....allowing you to eliminate the expander station. Sorry it's hard to get at first....should seen me the first month of learning my first progressive.;)

PTX drops in here: (Lower part of the activated linkage of the powder measure/powder die)

View attachment 885978
Click to expand...

I'm sorry as I misunderstood, but thanks for the clarification, that's awesome. That is exactly what I was hoping for. As Ruger 15151 so long as you have light you can check visually and get that piece of mind. It's just me and my OCD as I'm used to weighing every load when reloading and using the Chargemaster lite. I tested the powder drop and was able to get consistent drops before I started reloading

I finished setting it up. Ironically, I set it up as Ruger 15151 listed. It makes sense. I loaded 10, 45 acp rounds as a test. I discovered that the rod that extends the primer plate was not attached correctly and was not feeding primers on the plate. I figured out the issue then I loaded 10 primers in the tube.

The one issue I encountered is that the press would not consistently drop the primers on the plate-on every pull- but I'm hoping it was because either the amount of primers was too light (10 primers, but used the fiber glass weight), or because it was so new.

Needless to say, I had to reload only 1 round on the shell plate at a time. I tried initially to do one round each pull, but I think it will take a bit. Still, it was SO much faster than using the turret press.

I ordered the PTX from DoubleAlpha and will set it up once it comes in. Once installed, I should have no more need for the expander die and will have room on the press for the powder cop. That's the setup I'll be going for until I get a little more seasoned with reloading on this press.

I really appreciate all the help. Especially in trying to avoid falling into the money pit. Sure I'll spend more money on improvements in the future, but it's nice to be able to re-use parts in my inventory to avoid having parts become obsolete in my garage.

One thing I would say for new reloaders, getting the foundational knowledge on a single stage press really helps when moving up to a progressive.

Thanks again everyone, and happy reloading.
 
Oh, so I don't forget. I used the Brownell's Hornady LnL setup video and the Hornady video on their site. They left some things out which is why I wasn't sure on the funnel or how to setup the powder die. Hornady's was a little better, but I have to give props to 76Highboy Reloading. He got a little long winded, but his tips and tricks really helped in getting it setup quickly.

He has other videos on how to setup different parts of the press (case actuated charger, but I didn't see this one until after I had setup the powder charger). The link below was the one that helped me out the most.

 
”The one issue I encountered is that the press would not consistently drop the primers on the plate-on every pull- but I'm hoping it was because either the amount of primers was too light (10 primers, but used the fiber glass weight), or because it was so new.“
Make sure the primers opening is “centered” in the drop hole on the primer slide. Best way I’ve found to do that is unscrew the primer tube, no primers in it, and advance the ram all the way up. The primer slide should be retracted and you can visually see if the primers/primer tube is centered in the primer slide hole. There’s a slight adjustment that can move the primer slide slightly. In my case I had to enlarge the adjustment hold just a bit to get a tad more play. Large primers are a bit more difficult for mine, but once adjusted and locked down works just fine.
I also run the PTX with the powder measure stop, it’s a bit to get adjusted properly but again once it’s done, you don’t have to worry about it. I use the RCBS Lock out die, and would recommend it highly. It’ll detect a low or high powder throw and lock the press, you don’t need to watch it at all. I visually inspect each case before seating a bullet, but, once in a while I’ll catch myself zoning. The lock out die is an added measure of safety.
Good luck!
 
That primer "problem" was why I sold both the Hornady LnL AP presses I had. Even with upgraded parts, many calls to CS, fiddling with them, having people come over and fiddle with them, I NEVER could get 100% primer feeding. Both presses would miss 2-3% on a good day and over 10% on a bad day.

I once spent two hours on the phone with a tech at Hornady trying to get those primer systems to work.
 
I have had best luck when I set up the primer shuttle to go just past center. That way the primer has 2 opportunities to drop into the shuttle. Also, you can de-burr and flashing around the primer shuttle to help the primer drop into the shuttle more easily.

As far as 76Highboy, He has setup videos on Redding T7, Hornady LNL AP, and all the Dillons. His videos are long winded as mentioned earlier but he covers everything you need to know in depth. I have learn a great deal from his videos.
 
Sounds like you are on your way! Have a great time! Enjoyed the long video.....he's not perfect.....and he doesn't hide that.....breath of fresh air. Good worthwhile video. Thumbs up!

Texas10mm said:
The UniqueTek parts have the step. I've got them in all calibers for my Dillon presses.
Click to expand...

That's great....when I was looking to buy they didn't......and I even looked for the step and didn't see it. Don't know why Hornady doesn't upgrade theirs too.

Horrors! I noticed I left out a very important word in my post Texas10mm quoted. I meant to say, "I've never worried about a 10th grain or two" I changed my original post.....not a good word to leave out.;) Sorry for the mistake. I'm not perfect either.
 
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