Powder for Cartridge Blk Powder Guns

sign216 said:

Wow, what a difference of opinions.

Click to expand...

Trail Boss does have the advantage of filling up the case which results in more consistent ignition, I suppose. But it is still very high on the burning rate list of powders which limits it to lower velocity loads before it reaches SAAMI maximum working pressures in old cartridges.

Reloaders have been using powders like Unique for over 100 years in everything from .32 S&W to .45 Colt thanks to its moderate burning rate. The standard load for .45 Colt has been 8.0 grains of Unique with a 250 grain cast lead bullet, resulting in around 850 FPS in a revolver, since forever.
This results in around 11,800 PSI according to Alliant, which is well below the SAAMI maximum working pressure of 14,000 PSI.

In my experience Unique has always worked just fine in .45 Colt, .45 ACP, and .455 Colt (Webley).
I think that the position sensitivity thing is somewhat exaggerated, though it may be more apparent in rifles.
Today I prefer 8.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal, which is very close to Unique. It meters better in a powder measure and is cleaner burning IMHO, but is not precisely the same.

Verify everything with a loading manual of course, before using any data.

rodinal220 said:

The corrosive thing is way overrated with real BP, I have found Pyrodex way more of a problem. Just clean with hot soapy water or a Ballistol "moose milk" solution, dry the bore real well, lube with Ballistol and you should be good. You can use conventional gun oils/lubes in areas other than the bore or chamber.

Click to expand...

I have no experience with Pyrodex, but reportedly it is very corrosive compared to black powder.
BP residue is very hygroscopic, so it absorbs moisture readily from the air. In my experience, the humidity where you are determines how fast and how much that it absorbs moisture and causes rusting.
I also always found that hot soapy water was ample to clean out BP fouling, followed by thorough drying.
Conventional oils work great in the bore and the chambers. Wipe it out before shooting though.
I also found that a cleaning afterward with Hoppe's #9 removed BP lube residue that was not soluble with the hot soapy water.

sign216 said:

Stumpy,

Wow, what a difference of opinions. I moved recently, and now I can't find my BP Lyman loading manual, but as I recall, weren't the BP reading in LUP (lead units of pressure), while the smokeless powders were measured in CUP (copper units of pressure)? Making comparisons between the two difficult.

I've got a top break S+W (Civil War era) and a Forehand (WW1 era), both in .32 short. But right now I'm loading for a Spanish double barrel .44 XL Shot pistol. The Spanish pistol has no maker marks, and is of unknown age. It could be from the 1950's, or the 1890's. And since it's Spanish...who knows when they switched to smokeless for their civilian arms. Photo of a similar pistol is below.

Joe

View attachment 887054

Click to expand...

For the revolvers, I would use real black powder, but that Spanish gun, seeing as it's a single shot (look like a single shot), I would not be opposed to suggesting Pyrodex for it. Even tho Pyrodex is horribly corrosive and should come with a giant warning label on it, in a closed chambered gun (I.E. not a revolver) the only thorough cleaning that needs to be done is the bore, chamber, and the muzzle. It's when you have a revolver and the stuff gets everywhere where Pyrodex is a disaster waiting to happen.

I find Pyrodex to be a pretty accurate powder too, but it seems all bp and subs are accurate. I would give Pyrodex a try for that Spanish gun, it is the cheapest sub on the market, although I have no experience or knowledge on how it does in a cartridge.

One bit of advice I can give is use magnum primers with whatever powder you're using.

sign216 said:

I know BP cleans up easily, but idea of cleaning w water (the horror) or missing a piece of powder, and seeing the gun in a week with rust or pitting would be horrible.

Click to expand...

You have probably been reading internet myths and rumors, most likely written by people who have very little actual experience with Black Powder. And I will bet none of them has ever loaded Black Powder into a cartridge.

Did you notice where I wrote:

"(P.S.) I seldom clean my guns the same day after shooting them with Black Powder. They do not turn into piles of rust over night. Old fashioned corrosive primers and Black Powder fouling were a bad combination. Modern primers are not corrosive, and the fouling produced is far less corrosive than most shooters believe."

I have been loading Black Powder into cartridges for about twenty years now. I have learned a few things by trial and error over the years.

As I said before, with modern non-corrosive primers Black Powder fouling is not as corrosive as it was with the old corrosive primers. I use modern primers, usually Federal Large Pistol in all my Black Powder revolver cartridges; 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40. I use regular Winchester Large Rifle primers when I load 45-70. Magnum primers are absolutely not necessary with Black Powder. I have always used standard primers for 20 years now. Black Powder ignites more easily than Smokeless powder and regular strength primers light it off just fine.






Something else I discovered a long time ago. If you saturate Black Powder fouling with oil, it becomes harmless, and will not cause corrosion. Black Powder fouling is extremely dry and will suck moisture out of the air. Then the moist fouling in contact with metal can cause corrosion. But if the fouling is saturated with oil it is rendered harmless to the metal. Think of it this way. Think of Black Powder fouling like a dry sponge. Let it sit in moist air and it will absorb moisture (water) from the air. But if the sponge is saturated with water, it cannot absorb any more water. BP fouling that has been saturated with oil cannot absorb any water out of the atmosphere. It is already saturated. It will not cause corrosion even when in close contact with metal. I discovered this many years ago. Probably not the first to discover it, but I did discover it independently.

Here is another example. Back when I was a Black Powder newbie I had been advised not to shoot Black Powder through an old pitted bore. I was told it would take tons and tons of elbow grease to scrub all the fouling out of all the tiny pits in a pitted barrel. So the first rifle I used when learning about Black Powder cartridges was a nice Uberti 1873 rifle with a nice shiny bore. Easy to scrub all the fouling out of a shiny bore. Then I thought about it for a while. I have a nice old Marlin Model 1894 rifle that is about 120 years old and has an old, pitted bore. Caliber is 44-40. So I ran some BP ammo through it, scrubbed the bore a reasonable amount to remove maybe 90% of the fouling, then ran a patch soaked with Ballistol down the bore. Then I set the rifle aside for a couple of months. Guess what? When I checked it again, there was NO RUST! The small amount of fouling in the bottom of the pits had been made harmless by soaking it in oil (Ballistol). Now I shoot Black Powder cartridges through a number of old antique rifles and revolvers, with old pitted bores. When I am done shooting I clean them a reasonable amount with my favorite water soluble BP solvent. I do not try to remove every last molecule of BP fouling. I clean them a reasonable amount, probably leaving a little bit of fouling in the bottom of the pits, then run a patch soaked with Ballistol down the bores and into the chambers of the revolvers. I follow with a dry patch to soak up the excess Ballistol, leaving a fine film of Ballistol behind. There is never any rust once I am done.


Water. Most Black Powder fouling solvents are water based. Yes, water can be problematic to remove. Some guys think they have to tear down their guns completely to remove all the water. Other guys either tear them apart, or leave them whole, and heat them in an oven at low heat to evaporate away any residual water.

I stopped doing any of those things a long time ago. Any firearm that I intend to shoot with Black Powder, I take it apart as far as I dare, then completely remove all oils and lubricants. I relube everything with straight Ballistol, being very generous and making sure I have coated every surface, then I reassemble.

When I clean I use a solution I call Murphy's Mix. You may have heard of it. Equal proportions of Murphy's Oil Soap, Drugstore Rubbing Alcohol, and Drugstore Hydrogen Per Oxide. I mix them together and store them in a 3 quart, opaque juice jug. Good grief, I can hear the howling now. Why mix up such a concoction? Plain old water has been good enough to clean Black Powder for hundreds of years. Here are the reasons. This stuff does not have to be heated, you can use it cold at the range. But more important, remember what I have been saying about saturating BP fouling with oil? There is water in this stuff. The alcohol is probably about 20% water, and the Per Oxide is about 97% water. It is the water that does the actual dissolving of the fouling. The alcohol promotes quick drying. The 3% or so Per Oxide gives it a little fizz to help lift off stubborn fouling. When the water evaporates, all that is left is the oil soap. And guess what. The oil soap saturates whatever BP fouling made its way down into the mechanism and prevents it from causing rust. I don't try to get the water out again, I just leave the MMix down inside the gun. Every once in a while I will disassemble the gun to clean out all the black, oily guck down inside. There is always lots of black oily guck. There is never any rust.






Here is a Colt that I took apart about a year ago. It probably had not been disassembled and cleaned out in two years, maybe more. Yup, lots of black, oily guck everywhere. But guess what? Once I cleaned away all the guck, there was no rust.






I can understand somebody being squeamish about leaving all that fouling down inside for all that time, but I have been doing this for a long time, and it works.

sign216 said:

You are going against everything I've ever learned about the corrosive effects of black powder, but I appreciate it.

Click to expand...

And where did you 'learn' what you have learned? From shooters with actual experience with Black Powder?

If you get a chance, go into a museum that has old firearms. Take a close look at the pan area of an old flintlock. Then take a look at a percussion musket that has been converted from a flintlock. Chances are there will be far more corrosion on the lock around the nipple on the converted musket than on a rifle that is still a flintlock. That is because of the corrosive nature of the old percussion caps.

P.S., Modern percussion caps are not corrosive.

Lol "Use of corrosive primates" lol just messin. I make my own percussion caps from a special way using roll caps and also making H-48 primer that is customized a bit using a different binder...yet its still corrosive. Although i never have rust issues at all and i use black powder. So long as you clean well and oil them...then all is well. Most of my guns look brand spankin new too .The caps i make arent as corrosive as the old murcuric primers so thats also plays a part....but they are still very corrosive.

Actually... as long as you washed the barrel out with water, corrosive primer salts were no problem,
Smokeless or Black

Yeah i never have a problem with my corrosive primers...the only powder i ever had a problem with was pyrodex. Its fouling as just so sticky and gummed up the works as soon as humidity hit it. But i use my homemade corrosive caps without a single issue of rust so long as i do my part and clean and oil well. I clean with distilled water and "LA Totally Awesome" in a mix out of a spray bottle and oil with Barricade. Not a spot of rust on my guns.

Listen to what Driftwood has to say. His posts are not just good or very good, but phenomenal! I've said many a time that he should write a book, and I believe others have.

So, it's difficult to elaborate much more when standing in Driftwood's tall shadow, but I do have a few tidbits to add.

I've never had corrosion problems with black powder, but, then again, I clean up religiously after firing, within a few hours. In theory, cleaning up after firing a black powder gun should be easier and cheaper, as water is much more plentiful than petroleum based compounds and at little or no cost. Running many a patch laden with gun oil or Hoppes No 9 after firing a smokeless powder firearm is much more time consuming than running boiling water down a barrel and then following up with patches, although admittedly many that come out quite black, after firing a firearm that was fired with black powder.

Let's start out by saying that IF you fire a 19th Century firearm, and some early 20th Century firearms that were designed for black powder, then fire black powder only! The reasons were given previously in this thread, e.g., the pressure-time curve, but if something was designed for black powder, why substitute anything else? That's like running diesel fuel in your car that runs on unleaded gasoline, if you ask me. Also, as far as black powder substitutes, such as Pyrodex, I have no experience with these, because, again, why substitute anything else? I have heard that Pyrodex is much more corrosive than black powder, but it's only what I have heard. Again, as I have not had corrosion problems with black powder, then Pyrodex certainly cannot be less corrosive than black powder is. (Admittedly, as a footnote, I do have one experience with Pyrodex. A friend heard I was starting to load black powder rounds nearly 10 years ago now and offered me about half a pound of black powder. I graciously accepted his gift and then used it to fertilize the lawn).

As others have stated, the corrosiveness associated with black powder likely stems from the use of mercury fulminate primers, and not the black powder itself. If I had to hazard a guess, this is why pitting in vintage firearms is often more extensive the first third of the barrel as this was the extent of the mercury fulminate contamination and the remainder was not subjected to as high concentrations of mercury fulminate.

Let's start with some chemistry. Chemistry is always a good approach to understanding something that could be perceived as mysterious.

"Gunpowder does not burn as a single reaction, so the byproducts are not easily predicted. One study[citation needed] showed that it produced (in order of descending quantities) 55.91% solid products: potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, sulfur, potassium nitrate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, ammonium carbonate and 42.98% gaseous products: carbon dioxide, nitrogen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen, methane, 1.11% water.

However, simplified equations have been cited.

A simple, commonly cited, chemical equation for the combustion of black powder is

2 KNO3 + S + 3 C → K2S + N2 + 3 CO2.
A balanced, but still simplified, equation is[126]

10 KNO3 + 3 S + 8 C → 2 K2CO3 + 3 K2SO4 + 6 CO2 + 5 N2."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

From the second equation, K2SO4 is potassium carbonate, a white salt which is soluble in water. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_carbonate)

So, run water down the barrel of your firearm, and remove any salts, and corrosion should be prevented. Now I, and others, run boiling water down the barrel of a firearm, and this is to not only dissolve salts, but to enhance evaporation of water, thereby lessening the chance of any rust forming. And then I religiously clean the barrel and oil the firearm. But, it should be stated, it appears that water, of any temperature, will dissolve potassium carbonate, so if one does not have access to water at home, heated to boiling, one should be able to use water from a stream or lake to remove any salts until a thorough cleaning can be performed later, as long as everything is dried. For that matter, coffee from your Thermos could suffice, if necessary.

And, lots of misconceptions out there on the internet. You cannot believe everything you read on the internet. Let's dispel a few myths in an article that comes up early in a search of "how corrosive is black powder".

Here's the link: https://www.chuckhawks.com/problems_blackpowder.htm

The title: "Problems of Blackpowder". Appears to me there's an agenda.

"A problem associated with black powder is its hygroscopicity. Black powder absorbs about 1.5 weight percent moisture under 75 percent relative humidity at a temperature of 21.1.degrees C. (70.degrees F.) over a period of 24 hours. If black powder picks up sufficient moisture, there is a possibility that the black powder will not burn as fast. High relative humidity may cause erratic behavior. Water may cause the potassium nitrate to migrate out of the black powder and cause corrosion of metallic parts."

Really? What problems? Keep your powder dry. If you load a metallic cartridge, no water should be getting into the case. Remove salts with water after firing. I don't see a problem.

"Black powder is unpredictable in a sense that it can ignite unexpectedly and thereby cause property destruction, injuries, and death."

This is a myth. So can gasoline. If this was the case, why have studies of static electricity and black powder failed to ignite it? Why is black powder now available in plastic containers that could potentially create static electricity? Just have a healthy respect for black powder, use brass reloading components, and leave your cigarette away from the reloading bench, and you shouldn't have a problem.

"Smokeless powder was created as a black powder substitute; nothing could be more obvious."

And how? The pressure curves dispel this one. Also, fill a case to capacity with smokeless powder, as a "substitute", and see how many fingers you have left after you pick up your firearm in at least a dozen pieces.

So, I hope this proves helpful to some degree, in understanding some of the chemistry behind black powder ignition and dispels at least a few myths.

From Post #29, Driftwood Johnson states:

"Magnum primers are absolutely not necessary with Black Powder. I have always used standard primers for 20 years now. Black Powder ignites more easily than Smokeless powder and regular strength primers light it off just fine."

Thank you for addressing this! Any ideas where the myth that magnum primers need to be used with black powder? I have found this not to be the case for the following reasons:

1. "Black powder ignites more easily than smokeless powder", as you state. So, why should there be a need for a magnum primer to begin with?

2. When I started loading black powder rounds about 10 years ago, it was for firearms that should not require a magnum primer; in fact, I never even considered using a magnum primer, and had every single round I loaded fire properly without using a magnum primer. It was only after I had been loading black powder rounds for some time (over a year, maybe more), that I read somewhere that magnum primers should be used. No sense changing something that seems to be working, plus I have thousands of standard primers at home and no magnum primers, so why take the time and expense to purchase magnum primers, especially since the few firearms I still own modern enough to shoot smokeless powder do not require a magnum primer?

And one more thing that comes to mind. I meant to include it in my original post, but it's important enough to state in a separate post:

From a Toxicology course I once took:

"The solution to pollution is dilution."

It's catchy and something to remember. Not always true, but usually so, and is applicable in this case.

The solution to pollution (potassium carbonate [salt]) is dilution (water).

For pistol, depending on caliber, either FFFg (3F) for .36 and under. For .44/.45 you can use either FFFg (3F) or FFg (2F). For rifles, FFg (2F) or Fg (F1F), again, depending on caliber. The .45's and larger, use the Fg (1F) For something like the .38-55 and smaller, use FFg (2F)
If you use Pyrodex, the "P" grade for revolvers and pistol or the "RS" grade for .44 and above. For rifles, use the "CTG" grade. Personally, I'd switch to the "CTG" grade for .50 caliber cartridge handguns.
Regardless of if you use real black or Pyrodex, you will have to clean the thing like you were using loose powder and ball. Just because it is in a cartridge does not change the characteristics of the fouling.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Something else I discovered a long time ago. If you saturate Black Powder fouling with oil, it becomes harmless, and will not cause corrosion. Black Powder fouling is extremely dry and will suck moisture out of the air. Then the moist fouling in contact with metal can cause corrosion. But if the fouling is saturated with oil it is rendered harmless to the metal.

Click to expand...

I discovered this too, but only in the last few years.
Previously, as a young man, I used to scrupulously disassemble my BP revolvers and wash all the parts in the kitchen sink. It was tedious yet I removed every screw and every internal part.
Fast forward to today and a new Pietta Remington and I was not too keen on doing this every time.
So, I just do an upper disassembly and leave the action alone, and scrub all with soapy water as per usual, wiping the hammer and trigger cavities as best as I am able without getting water inside.
The action gets lubed with 20W-50 gear oil and detail cleaned after several shooting sessions.

The great thing about this forum is the wide variety of experience and techniques involved with our addiction. Some of you have an absolute hate for the substitute powders, others not so much. Each substitute has it's quirks and what it takes to clean up after shooting. In a lot of the places I have lived or worked real black powder was impossible to find and if you did find it there was only Goex available. However Pyrodex, 777, or another substitute was always on the shelf. Beggars can't be choosers. Best thing is not to scare off any potential new guys to our hobby as we seem to be slowly fading away by prejudice to stuff that's not how it was done 200 years ago, just my nickle's worth.

The post, above, #41, states the following: "...real black powder was impossible to find and if you did find it there was only Goex available."

Not sure why there is a general prejudice against Goex. I have used both Goex and Old Eynsford, and I cannot discern a difference.

The important thing is at least it's black powder.

I can see a difference betwrrn goex and old Eynseford. Goex is dirtier and doesnt have the same velocities. Im sure its the charcoal thats making the difference. My homemade black powder actually beats swiss velocities and is just a tad cleaner too...i use red alder charcoal

orpington said:

And one more thing that comes to mind. I meant to include it in my original post, but it's important enough to state in a separate post:

From a Toxicology course I once took:

"The solution to pollution is dilution."

It's catchy and something to remember. Not always true, but usually so, and is applicable in this case.

The solution to pollution (potassium carbonate [salt]) is dilution (water).

Click to expand...

orpington said:

The post, above, #41, states the following: "...real black powder was impossible to find and if you did find it there was only Goex available."

Not sure why there is a general prejudice against Goex. I have used both Goex and Old Eynsford, and I cannot discern a difference.

The important thing is at least it's black powder.

Click to expand...

All I’ve ever used is Goex as it’s all that is easily available up here where I’m at.

sign216 said:

Thank you all for the information. I know BP cleans up easily, but idea of cleaning w water (the horror) or missing a piece of powder, and seeing the gun in a week with rust or pitting would be horrible.
I'm surprised that no one is okay w Triple7 or Blackhorn209 as substitutes.
It's interesting overall.
Joe

Click to expand...

The only time I experienced this "horror" you mention is when using Pyrodex. After experiencing just what you mention I just the thought of shooting that in one of my guns makes me queasy. This is not the case with real black powder, in fact I've gone a day or two after matches not cleaning the guns. Always dry and wipe them down with ballistol after cleaning with water or windex.

In our main match cowboy action guns mine actually have cleaner looking bores and less stubborn residue on them than my wifes guns and she shoots trail boss and my guns only see real black powder. To add to that I spend less time cleaning mine than hers. Usually water down the barrel with a brush and then followed by a couple patches and mine are bright and shiny. Smokeless powder just seams to take more scrubbing.

orpington said:

Thank you for addressing this! Any ideas where the myth that magnum primers need to be used with black powder? I have found this not to be the case for the following reasons:

Click to expand...

The only thing I can tell you about that is Mike Venturiono recommended Magnum primers in the books he wrote in the late 1990s about shooting the Guns of the Old West. Mike wrote 4 books, Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, Shooting Colt Single Actions, Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. In each of the first three Mike listed both Smokeless and Black Powder loads for the old cartridges. His data shows he was using Magnum primers.These were the books I used as my primary source when I was a Black Powder newbie about 20 years ago. The Buffalo Rifles book only has Black Powder data in it, no Smokeless loads. It appears that some of Mike's data in this book uses Magnum primers, some of it uses standard primers. So I don't know if that is where the advice to use Magnum primers with Black Powder came from, but it is one source.

The other thing Mike recommends is using a drop tube to load Black Powder into the old cartridges. I have never felt the need for a drop tube for normal 'pistol length' Black Powder cartridges such as 45 Colt, or 44-40, or a bunch of others. I do use a drop tube when loading 45-70 with Black Powder, but for my normal cartridges, at CAS distances, I see no need to use a drop tube to settle the powder.

By the way, these books are available again on Amazon and they are excellent primers (pardon the pun) not only on loading the old cartridges, but they are excellent primers on the firearms. Lots of great descriptions of the Colts, Smith and Wessons, Remingtons, Winchesters, Marlins, Sharps, and others. I highly recommend these books as great sources of information.

Granulation: I used to load all my 45 and 44 caliber cartridges with FFFg. I loaded my 12 gauge shotgun shells with FFg. Pretty much standard advice. Eventually I got tired of keeping two different granulations in stock, so now I load everything with FFg. Going through Mike's data I found that generally speaking, all other things being equal, the velocity achieved using FFFg in the old 'pistol length' cartridges produced between 60 fps and 100 fps more velocity than a similar load with FFg. I don't care about that extra bit of velocity, I find FFg works fine for all my cartridges. Including 45-70.

FILL THE CASE!

I don't think this has been mentioned yet. It is imperative that there be no airspace in a cartridge loaded with Black Powder. Unlike Smokeless powders, where there will almost always be some airspace in a cartridge, it is IMPERATIVE that there be no air space in a cartridge loaded with Black Powder. Leaving air space between the top of the powder and the bottom of the bullet can have disastrous effects. So do not do it. Fill the case up. With Real Black Powder, which is all I have extensive experience with, I put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated its base will compress the powder between 1/16" and 1/8". If you want light Black Powder loads, DO NOT leave any airspace in the cartridge. Fillers can be used to take up the extra space. I have not used any fillers in a very long time, I used corn meal for a short time. Others use cream of wheat, and the most popular filler is grits. I cannot comment very much about this as I do not do it. As far as the Black Powder substitutes are concerned, follow the instructions on the container or on their website about air space in the cartridge. I 'm pretty sure most of them do not want any air space.

Goex

There is nothing wrong with Goex powder. In a lot of places it is the only brand of real Black Powder available. Get a load of the price of the can on the right. I must have bought that stuff a long time ago. Now, notice how the can says SUPERFINE BLACK RIFLE POWDER. In fact, it isn't. Back over 100 years ago there were many brands of Black Powder available on the market. And although the chemical proportions for Black Powder have been pretty much stable since the mid 1800s, (no I'm not going to tell you what they are here, you can look it up if you are interested) different brands of powder were designated for different uses. Some was blasting powder, which had slightly different chemical proportions, some was musket powder, and some was rifle powder. Sorry folks, Goex really does not qualify as rifle powder. It is more like a musket powder. It leaves too much fouling behind to be considered a rifle powder. Swiss brand powder qualifies as rifle powder. Swiss uses a different type of charcoal than Goex does (oops, I let that slip). The charcoal Swiss uses makes the powder burn more cleanly, leaving less fouling behind.

Interestingly enough, Goex






To tell you the truth, I have never used Swiss. It is more expensive, and I really don't need powder that burns quite that cleanly. My powder of choice is Schuetzen, produced by Wano in Germany. Up until very recently Graf's brand of Black Powder was actually Schuetzen in Graf bottles. Shuetzen uses the same type of charcoal as Swiss, but the cost is more inline with Goex. In my experience, Schuetzen produces a little bit less fouling than Goex.






The other brand of Black Powder I was using when I started out was Elephant brand, but it is no longer being produced.

sign216 said:

I'm still cautious re the BP residue. Esp since many firearms (think old H+R and Iver revolvers) are a huge pain to do a complete tear down. That residue is going to get in there, and stay. Dousing the action in oil to kill the residue cannot be a long term solution.

Click to expand...

Yes it can.

You do not necessarily have to completely disassemble a revolver (or a rifle for that matter) to prepare it for Black Powder cartridges. Here is one of my antique Smith and Wesson New Models Number Three, torn down as far as I cared to to prepare it for Black Powder cartridges. This revolver left the factory in 1896, so it is from the exact time period we are talking about. I have removed the grips, the cylinder, and the side plate. I pulled out the hammer and the hammer spring because that is fairly simple to do. I have not driven out the pins the trigger or the bolt rotate on and I have not removed the trigger, trigger spring, bolt, or trigger guard. I also have not separated the barrel from the frame. What I did is use a zillion q-tips and alcohol to remove all the old oils and sludge from inside. I pretty much drenched everything with alcohol, repeatedly using q-tips until all the old oils and sludge had been removed. Then I coated everything with Ballistol and put it back together again. That's it, that is the sum total of how far I stripped the gun down, and how I prepared it for my Black Powder cartridges. Yes, it works, I have been doing this for years.Yes, the residue will get in there, but as I have already explained the Ballistol down in there will render the fouling harmless. Every time I clean this revolver after shooting it with Black Powder, I clean with Murphy's Mix. I am sure to work some of the M Mix down inside the mechanism to help renew the oils inside. Remember, one of the main ingredients of M Mix is Murphy's Oil Soap, which remains inside when the alcohol and per oxide evaporate. The last step in cleaning it is to run straight Ballistol down the bore and chambers, and to work some more Ballistol down into the mechanism with q-tips at the slot where the hammer sits in the frame. It works. You don't have to believe me, but I have been doing this for about twenty years now.






Here is an antique Marlin Model 1889 rifle I did the same thing to. I was able to get the action almost completely apart. You can see in this photo that the cartridge carrier is still in the frame, the screw was pretty stubborn. Later I was able to free that screw and remove the carrier. After I was all done I put it back together again and took it to the range to try out. Hopefully I will be shooting this rifle at some of the CAS matches next spring and summer.






I can almost take a Colt apart blindfolded, once you do it a few times it is very simple. This is how far I will take a Colt down to prepare it for Black Powder cartridges. This is the same Colt that I pictured earlier covered with lots of black, oily guck. It cleaned up pretty nice, don't you think? Notice there is no rust anywhere.

Jackrabbit1957 said:

Best thing is not to scare off any potential new guys to our hobby as we seem to be slowly fading away by prejudice to stuff that's not how it was done 200 years ago, just my nickle's worth.

Click to expand...

I think that Triple 7 is perfectly fine for use in muzzle-loading long guns and C&B revolvers, although with Colt or any brass-framed revolver, you need to be more careful and use reduced charges.
I am not a purist who only recommends the "holy black", even though I only use it myself since I have an ample supply.
I simply don't need it.

But, if you do want to use Triple 7 in cartridges you really do need to be extra-careful.

1) Volume-wise it's significantly more powerful than BP, so you can't just dump in an equivalent case-full and say good enough. It needs to be a lesser volume than a case-full, in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. (This introduces complications)

2) In a cartridge it can't be compressed, but at the same time there can't be any air space either. Compression drives the pressure up significantly. It won't bother a solid breech in a muzzle-loader or a strong C&B steel revolver like a Remington, or a strong breech-loading rifle action.
But in a weak toggle-locking action like a Henry, 1866, 1873, or 1876, a case-full load with any compression could easily exceed the very low 11,000 PSI SAAMI working pressure.

I tried Triple 7 in a Uberti 1866 short rifle in .45 Colt, and scrupulously tried to follow the manufacturer's instructions. As instructed, I loaded powder to the level of no compression, but no air space, and used a milk carton thin wad.
The recoil from the rifle was as much as shooting a .30-30 carbine. Quite alarming from a heavy octagon-barreled rifle with very little recoil from factory .45 Colt cartridges.
Obviously the charge was too much, and I would assume that the pressure as well. I only fired the one round. In an 1894 Marlin, no problem I think. But, in a brass-framed 1866, big problem.
No harm done, but I pulled the loads and used up the remainder of Triple 7 in my TC Hawken .50 cal.

The problem lies in reducing the load. As I recall, you are not supposed to use cardboard wads to take up the space, so this creates a problem.

I have no experience with Pyrodex, but with it's well-deserved reputation for being corrosive, I never will have either.

orpington said:

Not sure why there is a general prejudice against Goex. I have used both Goex and Old Eynsford, and I cannot discern a difference.

Click to expand...

Goex works great. I've used it and similar powders since 1972.
Swiss is preferred by cartridge shooters like the .44-40 crowd, because it burns cleaner.
But, it's not an issue for muzzle-loaders and C&B pistols and revolvers.

I get the impression that there may be a prejudice against real BP by younger shooters because of having grown up in a world that hammers you constantly with the idea that "newer is better". Therefore BP substitutes must be superior.
I think that it's what drives the compulsion to buy a new smart phone every year, regardless of the need, or lack of need, to do it.

Odd when you think about it. The whole idea of black powder shooting is to enjoy the past, along with all of the trappings that goes with it.

Driftwood,

I'm pleased you mentioned the FILL THE CASE part when it comes to black powder. I've been doing this long enough that I don't even think about that. Yes, fill the case 1/16" to 1/8" higher than the base of the bullet, powder plus grease cookie, and when seating the bullet, it has a distinct feel to it and, if I place my ear near the case, I can "hear the CRUNCH".

I'm surprised you never have used fillers before. I use Cream of Wheat. For something like .45 Colt, I fill with 30 grains of powder and top off with Cream of Wheat and a grease cookie, such that you "hear the CRUNCH".

It's cheaper in the long run as the price per pound of Cream of Wheat is far less than that of blackpowder and I note no difference in ballistics.