In-Hand Handgun Retention

During handgun retention and disarming training, I learned that my goal in life is to stay away, far away. The major shoulder rebuild as a result of a class participant who did not follow instructions taught me a very important fact: Mongo (BG) will not follow any rules I am familiar with.

luzyfuerza said:

and



I used to think this, too.

Then I learned some techniques for disarming someone who has a gun in their hand. Even when the person with the gun knows a disarm move is coming, action always leads reaction.

Which takes us back to point 1): Maintain your distance from threats.

As lemaymiami pointed out above:

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This is absolutely the truth!

Krav Maga training from many moons ago taught us that people who don't fight regularly, tend to focus solely on the attacking limb/weapon/etc and ignore other options that seem painfully obvious when you're in the 3rd person and don't have a massive shot of adrenaline racing through you. You need to take advantage of this weakness in an attacker, and remember not to be caught out yourself.
But if someone grabs your gun, you have a couple options that work pretty well. First is to remember that your legs are notably longer and stronger than your arms. While they have a grip on your gun, start kicking. You'll probably be limited to front kicks or stomps or low kicks aimed at knees, but kick hard and kick as fast as you can. Kick the shins, the knees, the balls, whatever. The second they let go to block your attack, you jump back and pull that trigger.
The other thing to remember is that your hips and back are much stronger than your arms. If kicking isn't working or isn't an option, redirect the momentum like a wrestler avoiding a hold. Instead of pulling backwards, push down and drive forward. Try to retract your arms and spin around in an attempt to pull them off their feet in a kind of throw. You might not throw them, but if they let go of the gun, you've achieved your goal.
Now, work on creating distance. Jump back. Start stomping ankles. If they dropped to a knee, leg kicks to the head are a great choice. You need to get away if you can. If you can't, at least they aren't holding your gun when you start pulling the trigger.

scaatylobo said:

One of THE reasons I do not like open carry.

It invites a gun grab,and even if you maintain control [ big IF ] there might be a discharge !!.

And if you have not actually had hands on training with blue guns [ or their ilk ] then you are NOT READY = even if your super fast on the skeyboard and can try to come up with a spunky answer to my rant

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That’s a very good point. There won’t be much shooting from retention if you can’t get hold of your own pistol and the criminal can. Rather than be a deterrent, an open carry can be attractive to a stronger and confident criminal that’s competent with fighting that could attack you simply to take the weapon for themselves wether it’s to coerce you into whatever he wants or simply to steal the weapon itself.

If that happens then it really has moved away from firearms training and into a grappling match proper with possibly a fatal result in the balance. Not cool.

Golf-21-Bravo said:

That’s a very good point. There won’t be much shooting from retention if you can’t get hold of your own pistol and the criminal can. Rather than be a deterrent, an open carry can be attractive to a stronger and confident criminal that’s competent with fighting that could attack you simply to take the weapon for themselves wether it’s to coerce you into whatever he wants or simply to steal the weapon itself.

If that happens then it really has moved away from firearms training and into a grappling match proper with possibly a fatal result in the balance. Not cool.

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AND for a scary thought = imagine the perp just gets within the "21 foot rule aka the Tueller drill " and has a blade .

If your freakin Bill Hickok you can draw and drop him and maybe not hit a bystander ---------- if your that good.Or you just get "CUT UP" a good deal and still escape = that is NOT a win in my opinion.

I just do not want to be that 'bystander'.

Accidental double post. Apologies to the mods if there’s a way of deleting this and I missed it.

Jeff White said:

Learn to shoot from retention! If you must have your gun in your hand while an assailant is close enough to grab for it, it needs to be held in close to your body. Get some professional training in shooting from retention. It's not the kind of skill you can teach yourself by watching a video or looking at photos in a book or on a webpage.

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There was a trick shooter some years ago, Bob Mundin (IIRC). He could draw and fire in less than 0.25 sec. Hitting a target as opposed to just firing added maybe 0.05-0.1 sec.

I prefer Center Axis Relock for my retention techniques.

Clean97GTI said:

Krav Maga training from many moons ago taught us that people who don't fight regularly, tend to focus solely on the attacking limb/weapon/etc and ignore other options that seem painfully obvious when you're in the 3rd person and don't have a massive shot of adrenaline racing through you.

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Our local Krav instructor: "We don't fight over guns. We destroy the attacker. Kick his balls into his throat, and then when he's laying on the ground you can take his gun."

Obviously not the whole story, but illustrative. And offensive, to those who believe the gun is the answer to every defense-related question.

.38 Special said:

Our local Krav instructor: "We don't fight over guns. We destroy the attacker. Kick his balls into his throat, and then when he's laying on the ground you can take his gun."

Obviously not the whole story, but illustrative. And offensive, to those who believe the gun is the answer to every defense-related question.

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A-freaking-men. The gun can't shoot you when you're the only one holding it. Don't attack the weapon, attack the guy holding it. That's one of the things I've always remembered about KM disarms, and not the fancy choreographed ones on Youtube. They may have shown those off in a class but the ones I drilled with didn't look anything like that. You grabbed the forearm and wrist that was holding the weapon and started kicking the crap out of the person. Hold onto that wrist for dear life because if you let go before you've taken the gun away, you're going to get shot. Once you've successfully kicked them into enough pain to distract them, you can grab the gun and wrench it backwards out of their hand. It's not pretty and stylish, but it does work.
Or if you can't get the gun, just keep kicking and stomping until they go down.

bdickens said: ↑
Weapon retention is another argument in favor of what some deride as the "death grip."

luzyfuerza said:

used to think this, too.

Then I learned some techniques for disarming someone who has a gun in their hand. Even when the person with the gun knows a disarm move is coming, action always leads reaction.

Click to expand...

True that, but I'll bet it's harder to get it out of my hands if I'm hanging on for dear life.

Thus, the Krav Maga approach mentioned elsewhere.

Interesting video I saw last night that is an extreme example of the subject at hand...

Good Ol' Boy said:

Interesting video I saw last night that is an extreme example of the subject at hand...

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It’s defiantly one of the best weapon videos going at the moment. It’s a shame it starts from the guard but all the same it’s a good example of how tricky it is trying to work from both angles with a knife or firearm.

It also goes to show that physicality can and will play a huge part in SD even with firearms.

bdickens said:

bdickens said: ↑
Weapon retention is another argument in favor of what some deride as the "death grip."



True that, but I'll bet it's harder to get it out of my hands if I'm hanging on for dear life.

Thus, the Krav Maga approach mentioned elsewhere.

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I competed in NRA action, among other handgun games, for many years, and did all the usual grip strength training. I do not claim to be any sort of tough guy, but my grip strength still appears to be well above average. A person of average strength can, with the proper technique, take my gun away easily, even when I know it is coming. The technique is not about strength, but speed and leverage.

Having written that, when the technique is not executed properly it doesn't work at all, and everybody - even the top dogs in my gym - screws it up sometimes. Then they get "shot".

The lesson, for me, is that a gun is purely a distance weapon. Even if it's in my hand and pointed at my target, I want him at least ten feet away.

I also have been taking lessons in "Martial Blade Concepts", which is the most realistic "knife fighting" technique I can find. It is not knife "dueling" or fighting with a big fixed blade, but rather using your folding pocket knife to reduce an opponent's ability to carry out an attack.

One of the primary targets is the inner wrist of the hand holding the weapon, with the idea being that if those tendons are severed it will be difficult to hold onto that weapon. It is surprising and sobering to see how quickly a halfway competent knife man can make that cut, and again reinforces my belief that I am fooling myself if I think my gun is a reasonable weapon for close contact fights.