FFL won't ship or refund.

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These two statements are drastically different.

Exactly. And I'll add that they change the entire tone of the events, and what actions are needed, based on which occured and when. It's not semantics or an inconsequential difference.
 
This was also very helpful. Thank you so much!

One other detail. The seller should (not saying he will) contact your FFL that he has shipped so he knows when, for who and what was shipped. Surprises are no way to do business.

People in business are always being threatened with lawsuits. Nobody cares about that anymore. What they do care about, or should, is are they being fair to their customers.
 
Yeah your ffl is the one to send their info then in turn the shipper usually sends copy of his in the shipment. You offering your ffl info in not appropriate. All communication needs to be ffl to ffl. Possible he thought you were trying something and fugured he has made clear money. Have your ffl send their info with copy of purchase. If the shipper then refuses contact ATF and seek advise. At that point the next move would be to have an attorney send a letter. Usually when that happens they will either ship it or refund. Matter of making them know you are legally serious.
 
FWIW I have sent my FFL's detail to at least a dozen other FFL's and it has never caused an issue. If the selling FFL has a question about the legitimacy of the info they can research it online in a couple of minutes. It sounds like the seller wants to keep the money and the gun(I'd bet he's already sold it to someone else). At this point disputing the charge with the card company is the only logical answer.
 
I skipped straight to the end so if it's already covered, excuse me.

Were it me, I'd exercise a couple of options - after addressing concerns for FFL at your end and finding no joy.

The County Attorney's office for his county.
His County Sheriff.

Then, one may address either the money of the firearm.

If I were on sufficiently solid ground - the firearm being reported as stolen is a SOLID attention getter. I've defaulted to this with; airlines, illegally L.E. seized/withheld firearms and as a fall back for an individual who REFUSED to make good on a check.

In all cases, they were handled by the pertinent County Sheriff's office and each of them made a single courtesy call of no official impact before officially filing my complaint.

I have seldom if ever(?) received satisfaction from a municipal police department.

Todd.
 
However, the theft part comes in when he won't give the money back either.

Exactly. If the seller doesn't like the buyer or the buyer has flubbed up on getting his local FFL to send their license and info to the seller, the seller is not obliged to complete the transaction. He just needs to issue a refund.

He doesn't get to keep the money because he feels the buyer is a pain. Keeping both the gun and the money is theft.
 
1. A lot of ya'll are jumping on the "its theft" bandwagon, and don't understand the definition of theft often excludes making a voluntary payment (as did the OP) While it may not be theft, it may be conversion. Or as in many of these situations, ATF and local PD will tell you its a civil matter.....LE doesn't do civil.
2. Seller cannot legally ship the firearm until he has a copy of the receiving dealers FFL. That is federal law.
3. I'm starting to understand the sellers frustration with the OP based on his ability to explain the situation.
4. If seller doesn't understand credit/debit card usage, including chargebacks, he shouldn't be buying guns using them:
5. "I'm asking if anyone can give me advice on what to do next. I've gotten some good tidbits from a few people on here, so I appreciate that."
No one has given you "tidbits", but actual steps you should have taken immediately....like contact the bank that issued your credit card.
6. Filing charges, filing lawsuits, pressing charges...........silly. Not silly? Calling the darned bank and telling them "I want a chargeback because I didn't get what I paid for".
Needless drama that didn't need to be.;)
 
I skipped straight to the end so if it's already covered, excuse me.

Were it me, I'd exercise a couple of options - after addressing concerns for FFL at your end and finding no joy.

The County Attorney's office for his county.
His County Sheriff.

Then, one may address either the money of the firearm.

If I were on sufficiently solid ground - the firearm being reported as stolen is a SOLID attention getter. I've defaulted to this with; airlines, illegally L.E. seized/withheld firearms and as a fall back for an individual who REFUSED to make good on a check.

In all cases, they were handled by the pertinent County Sheriff's office and each of them made a single courtesy call of no official impact before officially filing my complaint.

I have seldom if ever(?) received satisfaction from a municipal police department.

Todd.
This is absolutely the worst advice one could give. The firearm WAS NOT STOLEN.
 
This is absolutely the worst advice one could give. The firearm WAS NOT STOLEN.
If it was paid for and retained, it most certainly IS stolen. As stated by the OP.

I'll take your response though, as I do most where superlatives are used and assume it doesn't actually apply.

Todd.
 
Check with the debt card company.

Mine is thru my credit union and offers many or all of the same protections that credit cards do.
 
If it was paid for and retained, it most certainly IS stolen. As stated by the OP.....
OP never had possession. That's pretty much step one in stealing something.
Using your logic, every time someone pays for a gun and fails to send an FFL, enabling the seller to ship.......that seller stole the gun.
Ridiculous.
 
Cody....

I have purchased multiple firearms online and had them shipped to a local FFL.

On every single occasion, the seller required my FFL to send them their credentials directly, and I believe this is standard practice. It also makes sense, as it would be very easy for anyone out there to send in some type of doctored cert. But your FFL holder can easily be verified.

This may be much to-do about nothing. His request that you have your FFL send their credentials directly is simple and straight forward, why not just do it?

It may not be that he doesn't want to complete the transaction, it may very well be that he must complete it correctly....

When the po-po or the feds contact this guy, he's simply going to tell them that you refuse to comply with the requirement to use an FFL holder to receive the weapon.... and because you have not had y our FFL holder contact him and send credentials directly, he will be right and you will look stupid.
 
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OP never had possession. That's pretty much step one in stealing something.
Using your logic, every time someone pays for a gun and fails to send an FFL, enabling the seller to ship.......that seller stole the gun.
Ridiculous.
Wrong again.

Responding solely to the OP's OP.... He says he paid and the dealer refused to ship. THAT, is all that I am addressing and I know that the County Attorney or County Sheriff's office will do the particular vetting of the case if it were advanced to them.

Todd.
 
My guy sent his info. The other guy won't acknowledge it. That's what I've been trying to say. He has all the info to send the rifle. He's simply choosing not to ship it or refund me.
There's something I'm still not clear on, and I'm going to ask this as simply as I can: Does the seller have "your FFL's info," or does he have a copy of your FFL's license? My understanding (which may be incorrect) is that the seller has to have a copy of the FFL itself, not just "info" in order to legally ship the rifle.
 
Wrong again.

Responding solely to the OP's OP.... He says he paid and the dealer refused to ship. THAT, is all that I am addressing and I know that the County Attorney or County Sheriff's office will do the particular vetting of the case if it were advanced to them.

Todd.
Yet the gun has not been stolen by any stretch of the imagination. Your advice above to file a false police report would have the OP commit a crime...that ain't High Road.
 
Yet the gun has not been stolen by any stretch of the imagination. Your advice above to file a false police report would have the OP commit a crime...that ain't High Road.
Again, as a manufacturer, of course FFL holder, retailer and wholesaler, based upon the OP's base statement I KNOW it is theft.

You THINK it is not.

A product paid for and refusal to deliver is theft at the discretion of the overlaying LE organization.

Either the money was stolen in a version of fraud or the product was stolen for withholding it without cause.

These are facts based upon the OP's statement and while there are most certainly particulars elsewhere involved - the advice most certainly applies and as stated above, in the course of filing a report, the particulars will step out and other courses of action may be advised.

Now..... If the OP LIES in the course of filing - then that is where malfeasance on his part jumps out.

Todd.
 
[QUOTE="When it came time to ship I gave him my FFL dealer's info. He told me I had to have my FFL dealer contact him. I told him he had his info and could contact him because he'd have to give him his FFL info. Turned in to an argument and now, here we are. [/QUOTE]

Why were you opposed to talk to your FFL and have him contact the shipping FFL?

Yup, so here you are....
 
Cody....

I have purchased multiple firearms online and had them shipped to a local FFL.

On every single occasion, the seller required my FFL to send them their credentials directly, and I believe this is standard practice. It also makes sense, as it would be very easy for anyone out there to send in some type of doctored cert. But your FFL holder can easily be verified.

This may be much to-do about nothing. His request that you have your FFL send their credentials directly is simple and straight forward, why not just do it?

It may not be that he doesn't want to complete the transaction, it may very well be that he must complete it correctly....

When the po-po or the feds contact this guy, he's simply going to tell them that you refuse to comply with the requirement to use an FFL holder to receive the weapon.... and because you have not had y our FFL holder contact him and send credentials directly, he will be right and you will look stupid.

This. I've bought a number of guns online, and it's not complicated. I contacted my FFL and had them send the required info to the seller, at which point the seller shipped the gun to my FFL. If the OP's FFL sent the required info to the seller and the seller won't ship the gun, OP needs to contact his bank and have the money refunded to his debit card. If the OP's FFL has not sent the seller the required info, the seller can not ship the gun and the OP's FFL needs to do so.
 
Uhhhhh.....when I worked at the LGS, we required the receiving FFL to fax a copy of their FFL . “Having their info” is not adequate. You MUST by law have the receiving FFL license copy on file.

Having read thru the OP’s responses, I suspect the selling dealer tried to explain this and never got the required info from the receiving dealer
 
Again, as a manufacturer, of course FFL holder, retailer and wholesaler, based upon the OP's base statement I KNOW it is theft.
Based on the OP's statement that his dealer had not sent his FFL?
Tell us how often you ship without having a copy of the receiving dealers FFL.



You THINK it is not.
Of course I don't.
You are so quick to advise the OP to file a stolen gun report, yet completely fail to understand why the seller cannot ship.


A product paid for and refusal to deliver is theft at the discretion of the overlaying LE organization.
Give us a list of those local PD'd that would force the seller to violate federal law.



Either the money was stolen in a version of fraud or the product was stolen for withholding it without cause.
Oh.......NOW it's the money was stolen? First you claimed the rifle was stolen, now its the money. And Oh.My.Goodness......"without cause" again tell us more about your experiences as a FFL holder, retailer and wholesaler shipping firearms interstate without a copy of the receivers FFL. Abiding by Federal law is pretty darn good cause.



These are facts based upon the OP's statement and while there are most certainly particulars elsewhere involved - the advice most certainly applies and as stated above, in the course of filing a report, the particulars will step out and other courses of action may be advised.
Please reread OP's posts.

Now..... If the OP LIES in the course of filing - then that is where malfeasance on his part jumps out.
Yeah, it would be a lie based on what the OP has posted to this point.
 
Based on the OP's statement that his dealer had not sent his FFL?
Tell us how often you ship without having a copy of the receiving dealers FFL.




Of course I don't.
You are so quick to advise the OP to file a stolen gun report, yet completely fail to understand why the seller cannot ship.



Give us a list of those local PD'd that would force the seller to violate federal law.




Oh.......NOW it's the money was stolen? First you claimed the rifle was stolen, now its the money. And Oh.My.Goodness......"without cause" again tell us more about your experiences as a FFL holder, retailer and wholesaler shipping firearms interstate without a copy of the receivers FFL. Abiding by Federal law is pretty darn good cause.




Please reread OP's posts.


Yeah, it would be a lie based on what the OP has posted to this point.
OK - I'm done with you. You are either being deliberately obtuse to EXACTLY what I am say in response to the OP's opening statement or there is a comprehension issue at your end. Either way, exclude me from further argument mining on your part.

I stated from the get-go that I am responding to ONLY the OP's original statement and I couldn't imagine it being clearer than that.

Todd.
 
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