Since New Jersey outlaws Hollow Points, I'm curious as to what they're rate of "over penetration" is , if there is some sort of statistic like that in the first place. Shouldn't it be through the roof? And not only for the PD, but also including the citizens who CCW?
New Jersey Over Penetration Statistics
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Ah ok. And what about citizens? Are there high rates of over penetration situations?
MedWheeler
Member
Given the relatively-few people licensed in the state to carry, and the even-smaller number who likely actually do, I'd guess there isn't enough baseline data to draw firm conclusions.
Now, using "bad-guy" shootings might open that up some.
Now, using "bad-guy" shootings might open that up some.
No clue. I searched for a while to find that information.
NJ doesn't outlaw hollow points. You are allowed to buy, possess, and shoot them, and even shoot them at people that are engaging in criminal activities and under circumstances as dictated by law. You're just not allowed to have them in your carry firearm when it's on your person. Now, since 99.99999999% of people in this state cannot carry, it's pretty irrelevant.
Ok, so basically they're legal for use at home, or on lands owned by you. So as far as the people who do conceal carry, they're just a liability waiting to happen? Being forced to use FMJ, I mean what the heck? So any citizen shooting in relatively crowded places will most likely result in not only the intended target, but innocents being hit as well? I'm gonna check news articles myself, but it seems of it were a common problem among the few people who do carry, it would've received attention by now?
wally
Member
While I can see over penetration as possibly a serious issue for police engaging in shootouts with fleeing felons, not so much for the law-abiding concealed carrier. I can't really imagine too many situations where someone behind the guy I need to shoot would be innocent and not an accomplice.
In a "mass shooting" scenario I'm one of many potential targets but not a specific target, so if I keep my head, seek cover or concealment, and await an opportunity for a clear shot over penetration won't be an issue.
Misses are a much bigger thing to worry about and what ammo you are using won't really matter.
This will be a difficult question to answer, because of all the variables:
1) Some trajectories will involve a small amount of tissue which means that even a JHP would perforate the intended target and could hit an unintended target down range..
2) For the above trajectories some of the JHPs might have expanded by the time they exited and some might not have. For the ones that left the intended target expanded then there would be complex calculations to determine whether that projectile posed a lesser threat of penetration to an unintended target than an FMJ in the same circumstances.
3) An FMJ may tumble after passing through a certain thickness of tissue. They often lose gyroscopic stability and end up in a base-forward position in the body. If the FMJ perforated an intended target but was destabilised and hit an unintended target sideways for instance, there would be complex calculations again, trying to work out whether that projectile posed a greater threat than a JHP on the same trajectory.
4) You have to take into account clothing variables which in some cases could cause a JHP to fail to expand. You then have another set of calculations required to work out whether that failed JHP really does behave like an FMJ or not. Much will depend on the design of the bullet.
You also have to assume that the shooter can fire whatever ammunition types you are comparing (FMJ vs JHP) with the same proficiency so that you can say the number of misses in both cases can be ignored and that shot placement would have been the same in both cases.
1) Some trajectories will involve a small amount of tissue which means that even a JHP would perforate the intended target and could hit an unintended target down range..
2) For the above trajectories some of the JHPs might have expanded by the time they exited and some might not have. For the ones that left the intended target expanded then there would be complex calculations to determine whether that projectile posed a lesser threat of penetration to an unintended target than an FMJ in the same circumstances.
3) An FMJ may tumble after passing through a certain thickness of tissue. They often lose gyroscopic stability and end up in a base-forward position in the body. If the FMJ perforated an intended target but was destabilised and hit an unintended target sideways for instance, there would be complex calculations again, trying to work out whether that projectile posed a greater threat than a JHP on the same trajectory.
4) You have to take into account clothing variables which in some cases could cause a JHP to fail to expand. You then have another set of calculations required to work out whether that failed JHP really does behave like an FMJ or not. Much will depend on the design of the bullet.
You also have to assume that the shooter can fire whatever ammunition types you are comparing (FMJ vs JHP) with the same proficiency so that you can say the number of misses in both cases can be ignored and that shot placement would have been the same in both cases.
dbmjr1
Member
Easy solution. Carry Hollow Based Wad Cutters, accidently loaded upside down.
Swampman
Old Fart
Just because they live in a state with stupid laws, that doesn't mean N.J. CCW's/firearms owners are stupid.
I have absolutely zero data to back this up, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo is very popular in New Jersey.
I have absolutely zero data to back this up, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo is very popular in New Jersey.
Considering until just this moment I didn't know this product exists, I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in that.
Pudge
Member
I'd like to reiterate your last line: Misses are a much bigger thing to worry about and what ammo you are using won't really matter.
herrwalther
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As others have pointed out, very few people are allowed to carry firearms in NJ because of the gun laws. The data would take more time and money to compile than it would benefit. I have many friends in NJ and what I know of their gun laws, I could never be in that state for very long.
Swampman
Old Fart
Federal Expanding FMJ has been commercially available for about 20 years, my assumption was that NJ gun enthusiasts would have embraced the concept by now since it was originally intended for sale in countries that ban hollowpoints.
My apologies if you believe that I've made false or misleading statements about you or the other firearms owners of your state.
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From test I've seen that doesn't really work very well. It's more effective just to carry standard .38 Special 148 gr Wadcutters. Out of a snubnose they only penetrate 16" anyway.
I think the NJ lawyers would consider that a hollowpoint.
I did some experimentation with reversed HBWC back in the 70s. At the end I was not impressed. When they expanded (as you intended them to) they had dramatic expansion. Problem is the expansion was unreliable. They would often expand only on one side or side of the hollow base would sear off. They would sometimes start to expand and wind up tumbling as the much heavier "base" would make the bullet turn. That's basic physics you can't change. That's why FMJ or round nose bullets tumble as Odd Job explained above.
You could be charged with illegal possession of hollow points in NJ as the only charge. There are those that say you will be arrested for that single 22 hollow point rolling around in your trunk.
A hollow point charge in NJ is usually used as an add on charge. Prosecutors only use it if you're arrested for something else.
I'm not saying don't concern yourself with the law in NJ. I'm saying don't overconcern yourself.
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Ive carried factory 148 hbwc in J frames for years. Some of the reasons I've repeated often are the bullet is already in an efficient shape, easy on you, and easy on the gun. The FBI says 12-18" of penetration in gel is adequate so that 16" falls in that range. That 16" is possible in a low velocity round (about 700 fps in a 2") because with most of the weight forward the bullet doesn't tumble. The flat nose tends to limit penetration through hard barriers. A std wadcutter doesn't even leave a good dent on one side of a mailbox. Standard RNL only leaves a small one.
Ks5shooter
Contributing Member
CCW in NJ doesn't happen.
I spent quite a bit of time in New Jersey years ago. From what I could tell from the nightly social life, everyone there had huge problems with penetration. Maybe it was a bad lot of ammo or something but those guys fired shot after shot pretty much every night.
Is all good.
Those that are allowed to legally carry (think the vanishingly small number of retired LEOs who stick around) usually have rounds with filled hollow points. They've been deemed by our malevolent overloads as not being hollow points, because they are filled. (Yes, circular logic, the only kind they understand.)
The absolute level of moronic ineptitude that our laws possess could trip up the smartest of individuals, not to mention very little is actually defined, so it's always left to interpretation of the judge at the time as to whether or not you've committed a crime (hint: you have, regardless if you haven't.)
You mean LEGAL CCW... I am quite confident there's a whole bunch of people illegally CCW'ing.
Ks5shooter
Contributing Member
Interesting ammo.
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Swampman
Old Fart
I'm ignorant about the penal code and code of criminal procedure in NJ, but in Texas, things like social media posts and sig lines can be used against you in court during a prosecution.
Just something to keep in mind.
You are NOT alone ...and that is a pretty picture. Me get excited. Me get em sum. 45 44 357 ...oh yeah. Thanks!
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