Things Not to Live By

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old lady new shooter said:
Agree with "idiot" as the proper characterization of someone who asks what you related.

The scenario I am worrying about is very specific. If BGs are on their way in I have no way to get out, the store is tiny and crowded with only one door, unless maybe there is another one going through the storage area. In Jersey City they used long guns (= much louder than handguns) and started shooting into the store from outside the building, then made their way inside.
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If they're already shooting it's time to look for cover
 
Trunk Monkey said:
If they're already shooting it's time to look for cover
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As I posted in the other thread where I raised the Jersey City incident ("shooting through a window"), I don't think there is any actual cover in the store; concealment yes, cover no. My original thought was to shoot back through the window but after reading everyone's comments and suggestions, unless BGs' rounds make a big enough hole to shoot through I would now wait for them to reach the doorway.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
I used to believe this crap. I am currently going through a VA claim for my hearing. As part of my case I went to an independent audiologist who doesn't know my history (I was a 13B Field Artillery Cannon Crewman). For a second opinion to give the VA.

We went through the hearing and tinnitus test and he sat me down to show me the results and pointed on the chart to a dip that he calls a hearing notch.

He explained to me very clearly and very thoroughly that the notch was caused by noise exposure. He said that in normal hearing loss the curve just kind of goes down gradually but my case for it to go down, drop off and then come right back up indicates noise exposure.

He also told me that it is permanent and progressive. Which means that I will eventually become deaf.

I'm sitting here typing this and my ears are ringing so loud it hurts. I was actually sitting at work one day when a fault alarm sounded on the fire alarm control panel. After a minute my coworker looked at me and asked "Do you not hear that alarm?" I told him I thought is was my tinnitus. (Tru story bro).

I can't enjoy music, I can't use a phone, My TV is set to Closed Caption by default. My wife has given up on repeating herself to me.

If anybody tells you that auditory exclusion you protect your hearing they're full of it.

Wear your damn hearing protection. Wear your damn hearing protection. Wear your damn hearing protection
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I have been there. They give you ear plugs but you can't hear the gun commands. You try to do the finger in the ear thing but I got caught off gaurd a few times and thats all it takes.
 
Kleanbore said:
There is far more to defensive training than learning how to shoot.

All other things being equal, I would prefer a trainer with LEO experience--Ayoob, Givens, Pincus--to another.

I was speaking of discounting the value of the trainer who has not "been in a gunfight".

Tthe experiences of those who have engaged in search and destroy missions, and even of hose who have made traffic stops, responded to 911 calls, served warrants, etc., are, I think, of little relevance to those who are tasked and authorized to pursue and capture absolutely no one, and who must avoid harm in a parking lot or convenience store or at a gas station.
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I was hoping my point was this.

Those who have held anyone at gunpoint with the belief and intent to use deadly force,are FAR better to instruct PRESUMING they have the skills to do such.

That includes those in the military that taught my last class,the ability to move,shoot & communicate are those that the majority who CCW have no inkling of.

As retired LEO,it was a fact that I held many at gunpoint [ that does not count the thousands of times I just drew my pistol ].

I dare say,and believe that the actual action of holding someone at gunpoint with the INTENT to use DPF is a lesson in and of itself.

I never had to 'frag a room' but those that do / did were able to teach me much.

One I will name was Chris Cerino,he just taught a class in stance & movement at USCCA,and I was truly impressed with him.

S12 Trainer was a course that I will not soon forget,nor will I fail to keep up the training I received there.

Have a GREAT day ladies & gentleman .,
 
scaatylobo said:
Those who have held anyone at gunpoint with the belief and intent to use deadly force,are FAR better to instruct PRESUMING they have the skills to do such.
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I agree.

Personally, I would elect to try to hold someone at gunpoint only under circumstances that I cannot foresee.
 
Kleanbore said:
I stumbled into and foiled a robbery that was about to happen. No shots fired. The robbers fled.

I was so shaken that I could not describe the robbers or the getaway car.

My experience would be of little value to anyone.
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Kleenbore,
I cannot agree with that last statement. What you described above is perfect anecdotal evidence to support training the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN) provides to members on the psychological and physiological effects of being involved in a high stress situations that may involve use of a firearm. Both during the event an afterwards these effects are substantial, to include tunnel vision and limited memory. The particular psychology you describe also contributes to the difficulty in getting accurate information from so-called eye witnesses.
 
Craig_VA said:
I cannot agree with that last statement. What you described above is perfect anecdotal evidence to support training the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN) provides to members on the psychological and physiological effects of being involved in a high stress situations that may involve use of a firearm. Both during the event an afterwards these effects are substantial, to include tunnel vision and limited memory. The particular psychology you describe also contributes to the difficulty in getting accurate information from so-called eye witnesses.
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You do have a point--or two.
 
Kleanbore said:
There is far more to defensive training than learning how to shoot.

All other things being equal, I would prefer a trainer with LEO experience--Ayoob, Givens, Pincus--to another.

I was speaking of discounting the value of the trainer who has not "been in a gunfight".

Tthe experiences of those who have engaged in search and destroy missions, and even of hose who have made traffic stops, responded to 911 calls, served warrants, etc., are, I think, of little relevance to those who are tasked and authorized to pursue and capture absolutely no one, and who must avoid harm in a parking lot or convenience store or at a gas station.
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I again disagree.

Until you have drawn your weapon and done so a few hundred times [ or more ] with the intent to use it,I see that you will be at a huge disability in that " parking lot" you refer to.

You might even be inclined to make commands and be holding a perp at gunpoint ---- whats your next move ?.

Force on force training is the ONLY way to try and learn this = unless you have done it on the streets.

And I want that "force on force" to be taught by someone that has actually done the deed.
 
scaatylobo said:
Until you have drawn your weapon and done so a few hundred times [ or more ] with the intent to use it,I see that you will be at a huge disability in that " parking lot" you refer to.
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Just who might have had such experience?
 
Kleanbore said:
Just who might have had such experience?
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Police and that's about all.

The old guys, who friends of my father, who were officers in the 1950s - 1970s said they never, or almost never, even drew their guns from the holster...in 20 years. Fast forward to the 2000s and, at least in my city, there are numerous officers drawing their guns every single day of the year. (And we're not that big of a city.) We have at least 3-4 incidents per year where our officers fire their guns.
 
Kleanbore said:
Just who might have had such experience?
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Sworn in 04/05/82 till 12/30/2007

Seldom did a day go by when working afternoons or midnights that in the course of a week my gun was not drawn at least a dozen times a week.

And there was a period during the high "crack coke days " that we all drew our guns OFTEN & DAILY !.

I cannot even recall all the arrests at gunpoint [ not the same as drawing your gun ] ,and after the first few dozen,you came to check your front sight picture and FINGER off the trigger stuff !.

That is what you do not get with a great 'shooter' who has not been & done.
 
scaatylobo said:
Seldom did a day go by when working afternoons or midnights that in the course of a week my gun was not drawn at least a dozen times a week.

And there was a period during the high "crack coke days " that we all drew our guns OFTEN & DAILY !.
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If true, you were certainly an outlier, to say the least. None of the police officers whom I have known so claimed.

scaatylobo said:
That is what you do not get with a great 'shooter' who has not been & done.
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What "great 'shooter' "?

Should you be unavailable, from whom would anyone obtain the instruction that you visualize?

scaatylobo said:
You might even be inclined to make commands and be holding a perp at gunpoint ---- whats your next move ?.
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From good instructors, civilians learn to not do that.

You will not find me "holding" anyone at gunpoint.
 
Kleanbore said:
If true, you were certainly an outlier, to say the least. None of the police officers whom I have known so claimed.

What "great 'shooter' "?

Should you be unavailable, from whom would anyone obtain the instruction that you visualize?

From good instructors, civilians learn to not do that.

You will not find me "holding" anyone at gunpoint.
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"Great Shooters" would be Chris Cerino to name the first that comes to mind.

I am not even in this class of those I see as great instructors !.

And as so many have listed in the NRA magazine etc ,there are many who drew their gun and found themselves holding a perp at gun point [ seeing that many did not run away ].

A perp is likely to actually drop into the 'felony take down position' when he is confronted by a muzzle.WHAT do you do then ?.

And sorry if my numbers seem high,I was taught that if you even think you need to draw your pistol,then it better be in your hand !.

My city was about 50K,with a transient population of about 9 to 12 million a year. [ maybe you heard about it "Niagara Falls N.Y.].And as of recently we are considered the highest crime rates in this state.

I try to temper my comments with as much truth as I can muster,I know all too well how easy it is to question facts & truths on the web.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
I used to believe this crap. I am currently going through a VA claim for my hearing. As part of my case I went to an independent audiologist who doesn't know my history (I was a 13B Field Artillery Cannon Crewman). For a second opinion to give the VA.

We went through the hearing and tinnitus test and he sat me down to show me the results and pointed on the chart to a dip that he calls a hearing notch.

He explained to me very clearly and very thoroughly that the notch was caused by noise exposure. He said that in normal hearing loss the curve just kind of goes down gradually but my case for it to go down, drop off and then come right back up indicates noise exposure.

He also told me that it is permanent and progressive. Which means that I will eventually become deaf.

I'm sitting here typing this and my ears are ringing so loud it hurts. I was actually sitting at work one day when a fault alarm sounded on the fire alarm control panel. After a minute my coworker looked at me and asked "Do you not hear that alarm?" I told him I thought is was my tinnitus. (Tru story bro).

I can't enjoy music, I can't use a phone, My TV is set to Closed Caption by default. My wife has given up on repeating herself to me.

If anybody tells you that auditory exclusion you protect your hearing they're full of it.

Wear your damn hearing protection. Wear your damn hearing protection. Wear your damn hearing protection
Click to expand...

Definitely this. Just because auditory exclusion prevents you from noticing loud noises doesn't mean it's protecting your hearing from being damaged by loud noises.
 
Another for the list...

The ability to do rapid John Wick style magazine changes is more important than having a carry gun that doesn't randomly discharge magazines due to oversize, "tactical", extended, or non-fenced release buttons.

or more refined...

The probability of needing rapid magazine reload exceeds the probability of the magazine being released inadvertently during carry due to tactically styled release systems that are too easily activated by everyday body actions.
 
bdickens said:
Training greatly improves your odds.
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That seems to be an assertion as opposed to a fact. A few points.

The most common cited study of defensive firearm usage suggest the vast majority of defensive firearm uses do not involve firing so much as a single shot.

Most training for most gun owners focusses on firearms safety and legal issues rather than actual shooting.

There may not be enough cases of defensive firearm usage where the untrained defender actually touches off one or more rounds to come to any statistically useful conclusions.
 
Take typing. It's a skill you have to learn. It's not the same as gunfighting, in fact the two skills have very little in common. They can both be taught, they can both be learned.

But if you're the world's best typist, and have typed thousands of books, I think we can agree that that doesn't mean you'd be a good gunfighter.

Because skill at one does not grant skill with the other.

Like teaching.

Teaching is a skill. It can be learned, it can be taught. It has nothing to do with gunfighting.

Skill at teaching will not make you a good gunfighter.

And skill at gunfighting will not make you a good instructor.
 
To your point referencing caliber, I think that there is little doubt that you will be looking at greater wound severity and number with the higher power firearm. Intent, regardless of firepower, is also part of the equation. Outcome is determined by intent or something like that.

As for the .22 killing more people, I think that I have read that studies were done demonstrating that it did kill more people back in the 60's and 70's due to its overwhelming popularity and availability. The Saturday Night Special, as it were.
 
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