Front up guns, or when your primary isn't.

peacemaker45 · Feb 19, 2020

How often do other people encounter situations in which they would pull a secondary before their primary?

In my case, my primary lives at 9:00, in an iwb holster. Usually, it's an SR1911 CMD, (although since the Commander has been in the shop the last few weeks, it's been a 4 in Model 10.) However, 95% of my time is spent driving, and a lefty is not served well by belt carry in that situation. I'm planning on augmenting my strong side, with a right hand cross draw worn about 1:00.

Another situation, although not terribly common this year, given the warm weather, is coat pocket carry, if your primary is stuck under a heavy coat, something small in a pocket may be quicker. I'm considering something on the order of a 642, to fill that niche.

Do any of you have similar situations? How do you address them?

Olon · Feb 19, 2020

I think the solution you pose makes sense. I'm right handed and my primary lives at 4 o clock. It's a glock 23 and the secondary is a 638. To avoid having to settle for the smaller gun with lower capacity I remove my primary from the holster and put it in the side of the center console where I can get to it quickly and easily. Otherwise the 638 goes in a jacket or coat pocket.

Dibbs · Feb 19, 2020

How's it going in Beirut, there, peacemaker?
IMO, most of us just aren't concerned enough about being involved in a firefight, to merit our carrying more than one pistol.

Olon · Feb 19, 2020

Dibbs said:
How's it going in Beirut, there, peacemaker?
IMO, most of us just aren't concerned enough about being involved in a firefight, to merit our carrying more than one pistol.

IMO Murphy's law applies, partner.

peacemaker45 · Feb 20, 2020

Dibbs said:
How's it going in Beirut, there, peacemaker?
IMO, most of us just aren't concerned enough about being involved in a firefight, to merit our carrying more than one pistol.

LOL, well, Beirut it ain't. But this is less about backing up the first gun, then it is about backing up the carry method.

Everybody knows that strong side is a great idea. Classes, matches, all revolve around the strong side carry. But... Go out to your car, and try to draw from your left side to engage a threat coming from the driver's side window. It's possible, but just barely.

It's actually a bit of... Call it, constructive laziness, that has me thinking along these lines. I
wasn't kidding about the majority of my time being behind the wheel. On the average workday, I spend the 11 hours driving, to about 45 minutes walking around. Strong-side rig is optimized for walking around, but marginal for driving. That being the case, an easy on, easy off driving holster seemed like a good idea. With one gun, every time I got in or out, I would be transferring from one holster to the other. With a tuckable, that would be a pain after a while. With two, I would merely take off the driving holster and stow gun, holster, and everything.

Sometimes, two is easier than one.

jar · Feb 20, 2020

Consider a shoulder holster. Modern shoulder holsters work well when walking around sitting or even when belted in while driving.

FL-NC · Feb 20, 2020

My EDC/CCW is a S&W shield 9. This is my best choice due to climate and attire (summer wear nearly year-round). However, I keep a Glock 19 accessible in my vehicle- it is available when belted in.

Kleanbore · Feb 20, 2020

peacemaker45 said:
However, 95% of my time is spent driving, and a lefty is not served well by belt carry in that situation. I'm planning on augmenting my strong side, with a right hand cross draw worn about 1:00.

Another situation, although not terribly common this year, given the warm weather, is coat pocket carry, if your primary is stuck under a heavy coat, something small in a pocket may be quicker. I'm considering something on the order of a 642, to fill that niche.

Thise idea do make sense.

Dibbs said:
IMO, most of us just aren't concerned enough about being involved in a firefight, to merit our carrying more than one pistol.

"Firefight"? That's not the point.

Should one be forced to present and use a firearm for self preservation, the the probability that the firearm will malfunction when it is needed most is greater than zero. That's independent of the circumstances of the encounter.

The likelihood may be far less than remote, but the potential consequences would be extremely severe.

Many people believe that mitigating that risk by carrying a back-up firearm is a very prudent idea.

That's one reason for carrying more than one firearm. Another has to do with the kinds of situations mentioned by the OP.

In the event that a very desperate person should quickly slip into the passenger seat of one's vehicle when the door is opened to let someone exit, the driver may be invited on what could turn out to be the last ride of his life. That has happened.

The likelihood may be remote, but the consequences would be very severe.

It would be a good idea to be able to quickly access a firearm in such a way that such an invader cannot readily gain control of it or prevent its use.

In this country, that means with the left hand.

BSA1 · Feb 20, 2020

@Peacemaker Working 11 hours a day driving seems like a cross-draw holster would be best. Is there some reason you can not carry the same way during the 45 minutes you are ground pounding?

When I worked the streets in the winter I carried a J-Frame revolver in my right coat pocket. When I made a traffic stop I approached the vehicle with my right hand inside the pocket grasping the gun. This way I had instant firepower. However shooting thru the pocket is messy.

scaatylobo · Feb 20, 2020

peacemaker45 said:
How often do other people encounter situations in which they would pull a secondary before their primary?

In my case, my primary lives at 9:00, in an iwb holster. Usually, it's an SR1911 CMD, (although since the Commander has been in the shop the last few weeks, it's been a 4 in Model 10.) However, 95% of my time is spent driving, and a lefty is not served well by belt carry in that situation. I'm planning on augmenting my strong side, with a right hand cross draw worn about 1:00.

Another situation, although not terribly common this year, given the warm weather, is coat pocket carry, if your primary is stuck under a heavy coat, something small in a pocket may be quicker. I'm considering something on the order of a 642, to fill that niche.

Do any of you have similar situations? How do you address them?

ANY who are calling this post out are making me laugh.

They must be the one's that are so situationally aware that no one will ever get within 50 yards of them and pose a threat !.

I often carry a BUG in the pocket of a easily reachable coat / pants ,that I can and do walk with the gun in hand.

Primary is under a coat in cold weather,or under a cover [ it's called CCW for cause ].

So having a "gun in hand" is a great deal faster.

And if I had the ability that many profess,I would not need to be actually ready at a moment notice [ or less ].

I might not have done so a few decades past,BUT not being that young & fast I see cause to make amends for the aging process.

And yes,I practice at the range to draw & shoot from the numerous places I ccary.

Dibbs · Feb 20, 2020

Sorry, guys, there's just a point, IMHO, where obsessing about how to, and how many, and how much guns and ammo to carry, becomes the "1000 deaths" we embrace, rather than the one, actual, final death, which we accept. Sort of a "chi" thing.

Do I stay prepared? Yes. Do I EDC? Yes. Do I regularly employ SA, in order to keep
myself out of trouble? Yes. However, while I embrace CC, no offense meant, but I've just got other things to do. Maybe I'm just very lucky, to be in a nice area.

Kleanbore · Feb 20, 2020

Dibbs said:
Sorry, guys, there's just a point, IMHO, where obsessing about how to, and how many, and how much guns and ammo to carry, becomes the "1000 deaths" we embrace, rather than the one, actual, final death, which we accept. Sort of a "chi" thing.

What are you talking about?

Dibbs · Feb 20, 2020

OK, maybe you haven't heard the expression "The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave man dies but once."

HOW WILLING are you, in your attempt to cheat death, to carry extra guns, extra mags, wear bullet-proof vests, in 90 degree weather,
strap on extra boot knives, get more holsters, etc ? Isn't there a point, Kleanbore, where you put down the fork, push that big, steaming, piled-up, never-ending
plate away, and say, "OK, that's enough."?

film495 · Feb 20, 2020

no idea, but - I would think when you don't want the person you're drawing on to react to a significant movement and larger pistol. also, if you carry 2 firearms, what is your draw time? if you're faster with the backup, then it really is your primary, IMHO. or sitting vs. standing - if you can reach it easier, then it becomes your primary based on circumstance.

Kleanbore · Feb 20, 2020

Dibbs said:
HOW WILLING are you, in your attempt to cheat death, to carry extra guns, extra mags, wear bullet-proof vests, in 90 degree weather,
strap on extra boot knives, get more holsters, etc ? Isn't there a point, Kleanbore, where you put down the fork, push that big, steaming, piled-up, never-ending
plate away, and say, "OK, that's enough."?

If I can conveniently carry a second firearm, I will do so.

It can mitigate the risk of a malfunction, and it can be helpful when driving.

I do not consider prudent risk mitigation as an "attempt to cheat death".

I consider carrying a back-up gun to be a better idea than extra magazines,

MedWheeler · Feb 20, 2020

Dibbs writes:

How's it going in Beirut, there, peacemaker?
IMO, most of us just aren't concerned enough about being involved in a firefight, to merit our carrying more than one pistol.

How's it going there by the tracks? Get any derailments lately?

HOW WILLING are you, in your attempt to cheat death, to carry extra guns, extra mags, wear bullet-proof vests, in 90 degree weather,
strap on extra boot knives, get more holsters, etc ?

Uh, what? Someone must have edited a post before I got here. I didn't even get to see who wrote all that crap here.

MedWheeler · Feb 20, 2020

Kleanbore writes:

I consider carrying a back-up gun to be a better idea than extra magazines.

As do I. My Kel-Tec P32 is barely bigger than a spare magazine for my PF9, and is probably lighter than a fully-loaded 1911 magazine.

That being said, I have taken to carrying the PF9, the P32, and a spare magazine for the P32 (because the ten-round spare fits nicely in a jeans "watch pocket", and it also allows me to ditch the PF9 belt gun should I need to become more "covert" for any reason.)

WrongHanded · Feb 20, 2020

Being a lefty, and in my experience, the idea of shooting left-handed at an attacker coming from the left of the vehicle, just isn't a great idea.

Although I consider my vehicle to be the primary defensive weapon whilst driving, if I were truly concerned about an attack at my driver's side window, I'd be carrying second gun for a right hand draw. And I'd shoot it right handed.

JR24 · Feb 20, 2020

Move it a bit in front of the hip, I carry at 2 o'clock and it's in just the right place to be easy to reach even with a seatbelt, as long as I hook my shirt behind the gun when I sit down (and keep my coat open). Thinking about it I can't see why it wouldn't work for a leftie too.

bdickens · Feb 20, 2020

In rhe car, I keep in mind that I am sitting at the controls of a +/- 1 ton weapon.

Trunk Monkey · Feb 20, 2020

Dibbs said:
HOW WILLING are you, in your attempt to cheat death, to carry extra guns, extra mags, wear bullet-proof vests, in 90 degree weather,
strap on extra boot knives, get more holsters, etc ? Isn't there a point, Kleanbore, where you put down the fork, push that big, steaming, piled-up, never-endingplate away, and say, "OK, that's enough."?

This is a Strawman argument, no one is talking about cheating death or carrying extra guns or wearing body armor in 90 degree weather (I'll concede the extra magazines because that's prudent). The OP is legitimately concerned about being able to get to his gun with his dominant hand stuck against the car door. Which is the condition he predominantly finds himself in during the day.

I rarely carry two guns but if that's what I need to do to be able to get one into play I'd rather do that than have my last thought be "If only I could have reached my gun...."

Kleanbore · Feb 20, 2020

bdickens said:
In rhe car, I keep in mind that I am sitting at the controls of a +/- 1 ton weapon.

I have difficulty imagining very many ways in which it could lawfully be used as a weapon, unless someone were unwise enough to try stepping in front of it while you were in it and trying to shoot you.

bdickens · Feb 20, 2020

Kleanbore said:
I have difficulty imagining very many ways in which it could lawfully be used as a weapon, unless someone were unwise enough to try stepping in front of it while you were in it and trying to shoot you.

I have difficulty imagining very many scenarios in which I might have to shoot someone from inside the car instead of - oh, I don't know - DRIVING AWAY.

ATLDave · Feb 20, 2020

peacemaker45 said:
In my case, my primary lives at 9:00, in an iwb holster. Usually, it's an SR1911 CMD, (although since the Commander has been in the shop the last few weeks, it's been a 4 in Model 10.) However, 95% of my time is spent driving, and a lefty is not served well by belt carry in that situation. I'm planning on augmenting my strong side, with a right hand cross draw worn about 1:00.

Here's my assessment: Strong side is better for retention and is a little faster on the draw. Cross-draw is worse for retention, but is better for draw-ability from weird positions and with the weak hand.

Once you've gone cross-draw for a second gun, you've already decided to trade away ease of retention in a gun grab situation. At that point, there's really not much reason to bother with the strong side gun... it's not like having your other gun strong-side is going to help with retaining the cross-draw piece.

If you've reached the decision to carry a backup in a cross-draw setup, you may as well just make that your primary carry location. At least that's how it seems to me.

Kleanbore · Feb 20, 2020

bdickens said:
I have difficulty imagining very many scenarios in which I might have to shoot someone from inside the car instead of - oh, I don't know - DRIVING AWAY.

Driving away is always preferable, if it is possible.

But let me help you. IMAGINE, for a moment, being blocked in and having someone either shoot at you or try to forcibly enter your occupied automobile. It should easy.

The fact that numerous legislatures have taken the trouble to amend laws to specifically permit the use of deadly force in circumstances such as the latter says to me that the risk is not entirely a hypothetical one.

I'm more concerned about the violent criminal who slips in during the very brief moment during which the passenger door is open.

That has happened.

Front up guns, or when your primary isn't.

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