Your thoughts on PCCs (pistol-caliber carbines)

Looks cool, have less recoil, cheaper to shoot, and can be fired at just about every range being that it's a pistol caliber... Other than that it's pointless to me and defeats it's purpose with the full auto switch... I rather have a rifle round for self defense and a PCC for plinking.

I got a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 yesterday and took it out right before dark. I shot it until I couldn’t see the targets anymore. It’s really great. I got it for $339 shipped.

Another happy Ruger PC carbine owner here. Got it in July of 2018. Almost 500 rounds through it so far. No problems. It's a blast and IMHO would be a nice home defense piece. Longest range with it has been 93 yards ( the honest distance of my buddies home range) but we were easily ringing his steel with it. Currently has a holographic sight on it that I had sitting around doing nothing, but considering a red dot or just back to the factory sights which I also like. Planning on switching it over to take Glock magazines as I also have a G19. That magazine adaptability feature is nice for Glock owners.

In my experience from having two of them it’s difficult to build an AR9 that is 100% reliable. Your kind of asking it to do something the receiver wasn’t really designed for and the bullet has to make a pretty big jump to the chamber. They can be picky on bullet shape to feed properly. If you were really going to depend on it for defense I would get a ruger PCC, a beretta storm, or a CZ scorpion. Something that was actually designed around 9mm. If you want parts compatibility and familiarity with your AR’s though, and you can accept 99% reliability, then an AR9 makes a lot of sense.

gunsrfun1 said:

I've gotten an itch for a 9mm PCC, "just because." For use as a range gun, not home defense.
But when my brain (my real brain, not my gun brain) is in gear, I am having trouble justifying it.
I had a Marlin Camp 9. It was fun, and reasonably accurate. But the trigger was so bad, I sold it.
We're talking use at no more than 50 yards, for hitting clays, steel plates, etc. (Not interested in reaching out any further with this.)
My "conflict" is that I can do that with my .22 rifles. In fact, they are probably more accurate.
So ... for those of you who have both: a PCC and one or more .22 rifles: Any thoughts?
Waste of money? Or worth trying again?
Thanks

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I have a few .22 rimfire rifles, but I haven't owned an autoloader version in several years. So, I don't really use my rimfire rifles as PCCs. Although I can crank out a good stream of fire out of my Marlin 39, but that thing has a 24" barrel, so it's no carbine.

I've had a 9mm carbine for a couple years now. I bought it to be the cheapest centerfire experience I could have with a 16" barrel. It's not as accurate as my .22 rifles by any means, but it sure is fun to shoot at ranges up to 100 yards. Plus it's a lightweight takedown gun, that happens to use common Beretta magazines, with nifty fold down sights, ambi-ejection, ambi-charging handle, and a hidden pic rail that can slide out under the barrel for a light of some sort. Too bad that Beretta makes them in batches that seem to sell out quickly.

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I have an SBR'd Sig MPX that is a real hoot.

A PCC seems practical as a home self defense weapon, especially for a single gun family. A few years ago a woman in Detroit chased off three invaders using her Hi-Point PCC. Easy to carry, hopefully lighter in weight, cheaper to practice with.

OTOH, carbines are supposed to be lightweight and small. The Ruger PCC is 6.8 lbs and almost as big as an AR15 (34.37 in to 32 in for AR15 in 16 in barrel (stock collapsed I assume). It is also more costly ($499 Palmetto State to $525 on gun.deals). Logically, you might get an AR15 instead. It would be more useful against coyotes (although admittedly, you did not mention that as a use.)

If the local range has tournaments in PCC format, that is certainly a reason to get one.

I can't speak to the fun factor, or emotional want for one.

Not 9mm, but I have a Rossi 92 PCC, total fun gun. Load it with 38s and shoot it all day.

Does it do anything a 22 can't? Heck yes. It's lighter than most 22s you'll find on the market. A 10/22 is a little over 5 pounds, a Henry Golden Boy is listed at 6.75 pounds, the 16" Rossi is listed at 4.8 pounds and I believe it. And the noise and recoil from a 38 in a rifle is nothing.

As far as 9mm PCCs, the only one I have is a Camp 9. I like it, but you've said that you didn't, and that's fine. The only other one I've shot is a Hi-Point 9mm, which is fun but clearly built cheaply. It's the kind of gun that leaves you wanting the same thing, but better. Shot a Kel-Tec Sub 2K in 40 S&W and it slapped the crap out of my cheek - putting a snappy round in an ultralight package will tend to do that. Still want to try one in 9mm some day.

I keep thinking I want a Ruger pc9 but I have 300 blackout for anything that would need punched and 22s for plinkin. I have several levers in revolver calibers though.

I'll give another boost to the new model Ruger PC-9. (Old model PC-9 too, but they're pretty rare and no I won't well you mine.)

The Ruger will chomp down the cheap steel case 9mm without asking for anything more than a little extra cleaning.

You'll also get a bigger "results" on whatever you're hitting. Cut up some chunks of old 2x4 or 4x4 and make them dance with the 9mm.

An added bonus to a 9mm PCC vs a .223 is the noise they make. A .223 in a 16" barrel starts to get downright unpleasant to shoot if you have even a roof over you. I know you said home defense wasn't a concern, but touching off an unsuppressed .223 or two indoors will likely permanently remove your ability to hear silence. A 9mm PCC will be much less damaging and disorienting.

gunsrfun1 said:

Thank you all! I have handled the PC9 and did like it (esp. the trigger), but have wanted something similar to an AR in ergonomics. I am now learning that they've come out with such a model (model 19122) that can be fitted with aftermarket AR stocks or grips (if I understand correctly), so I will definitely now be considering this one.
I already have a Marlin 1894C and a Marlin 922M ... but you can never have too many, right?

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Interesting. I didn’t know Ruger updated the PC Carbine.
https://www.ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/specSheets/19122.html

They are fun to shoot, if only because they are guns. They don't serve any other purpose besides HD. In that area, they outshine the shotgun, in my opinion at least.

The lever guns in 357, 44, and 45 make sense to me. They have enough power to be legitimate, if not close range hunting tools. And those in 9mm and 45 ACP used to make sense for personal defense. But the ability to now own an AR type rifle, or pistol, is a much better choice IMO. And those built on an AR platform will often cost less.

And as a range toy a 9mm PCC just makes more noise and costs more to shoot than a 22.

I have a number of them for plinking or target shooting, they don’t do anything a .22 can’t, outside of games that require them. Start killing stuff and they are better with less recoil than even better calibers, for the job.

They don’t do any magic, just another way to turn money into noise.

The longer barrel of a carbine puts a couple hundred FPS on the MV of a pistol round, so they're minimally acceptable, as short range hunters.

IMO, the attractive end to the PCC is having a pistol and carbine combo, which have interchangeable mags. I like the Beretta CX4 Storm/92FS combo,
but there's a lot of different ways to do it, with other brands.

I have three 9mm carbines, a Marlin Camp Carbine, AR and Ruger PCC. The Marlin is in a Ram Line folding stock. I like the weight and handling of the Marlin best, but they are somewhat fragile and not a lot of fun to work on. The Ruger is probably the one I enjoy shooting most. I regret buying the AR and I keep telling myself I will sell it eventually. Other than as a cheap range gun there’s really no advantage of a 9mm AR over a regular 223 in terms of weight and handling, and the 223 is definitely a more versatile and capable round.

I also have a KelTec Sub2000 but it’s in 40 caliber. As a lefty I found it massively annoying to shoot until I mounted a red dot at a 45° angle. That allows me to tilt it with the ejection port facing somewhat away from my face.

Elkins45 said:

I have three 9mm carbines, a Marlin Camp Carbine, AR and Ruger PCC. The Marlin is in a Ram Line folding stock. I like the weight and handling of the Marlin best, but they are somewhat fragile and not a lot of fun to work on. The Ruger is probably the one I enjoy shooting most. I regret buying the AR and I keep telling myself I will sell it eventually. Other than as a cheap range gun there’s really no advantage of a 9mm AR over a regular 223 in terms of weight and handling, and the 223 is definitely a more versatile and capable round.

I also have a KelTec Sub2000 but it’s in 40 caliber. As a lefty I found it massively annoying to shoot until I mounted a red dot at a 45° angle. That allows me to tilt it with the ejection port facing somewhat away from my face.

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The gun manufacturers have come along way with offering gun models for lefties, but this is an area they can improve.

I've got the Beretta CX4 and Ruger PC Carbine in 9mm, and a Hi Point in .45. The Hi Point is cheaply made, but that's part of the appeal. It's also a bit heavy, but with accessory mag holders you can have 27 rounds of .45 onboard, which is pretty nice. I'd like something nicer in .45 (hello Ruger?), but I like it. We sometimes have problem bears where I am. While I'd never hunt bear with a .45 ACP, I think it would do better in a defensive situation than 9mm.

The Beretta is very short and has a feel of quality, despite its space-age styling. I didn't like the look when I saw pictures, but holding it completely changed my mind, and I have no regrets at all. The plastic wings that protect the sights cut down on some peripheral vision, so that's a negative. I'm going to eventually upgrade some of the internals with Sierra Papa parts. They are expensive, but I have no plan to sell the Beretta so I will take the plunge when I've got some extra cash.

The Ruger is much longer as well as heavier than the Beretta, but obviously, it breaks down easily. I got the model with the barrel shroud, mostly on a whim as it was the same price as the non-shrouded version, but lists for more. I was shooting it in cool weather a couple days ago without gloves (low 30s) and the shroud was a little cold. I think the nylon-stocked version might have been a bit more comfortable in that circumstance, but it wasn't a big deal.

It's hard to say which 9mm I like more, because they are so different. The Ruger has a longer sight radius and the weight helps it steady a bit easier, while the CX4 handles more like a subgun. I'd recommend checking both out if possible.

For home defense I am sold on the pistol-caliber carbine. The noise issue is the primary one for me. I have had a number of emergency situations happen when predators have suddenly appeared coming after my livestock. There's no time to put in ear protection, and I value my hearing, thank you. Crosshair has it right in his comment. I don't have tinnitus, but I know people who do, and I want to do what I can to prevent it.

There is a tendency among gun enthusiasts to value power above all else, but there are a lot of other variables in shooting. .44 Mag eclipsed .44 Special, for example, because people wanted moah powah! But the Special is just as good as it ever was, just not as popular.

Pistol caliber carbines are fun to shoot, cheap to shoot, and the right tool for certain jobs, like home defense.

If money was no object I'd go with a SIG MPX PCC, or maybe a CZ Scorpion. But I can't justify that for a range toy so I went with a Hi Point. I found I rarely shot mine in stock form. The recoil impulse was uncomfortable to me with the spring butt stock. Last summer I added the HTA bullpup kit, which completely changed the gun. In total I have over $500 in a Hi Point, but I really enjoy shooting it now so it's worth it to me. Who knows, eventually it might become my home defense gun as it's form factor almost merges qualities of handguns and rifles for close quarters use.

Jim Watson said:

I shoot IDPA and USPSA, which have put in PCC divisions.
I see a lot of malfunctions and even breakage in low end 9mm ARs.
The Ruger is the most trouble free within a price factor of 2X or even 3X.

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This is what kept me from getting a 9mm.

I just haven't seen one run super well at matches.

I went with an AR45 with a dedicated lower that accepts Glock 21 mags and a Direct Impingement Upper from Macon Armory.

I have had malfunctions, sure, and the bolt doesn't lock open, but it runs (as best I can tell) better than most of the 9mm's I've seen.

And then it's a 45 so extra lead slinging fun.

I enjoy shooting my 9mm KelTec S2K, enough recoil to let you know you're shooting a centerfire, but not enough to be annoying.

Takes Glock mags that match my handgun, and....it folds. Gobbles up cheap steel ammo without a problem. Easy take down for cleaning, no tools required.

Corpral_Agarn said:

I just haven't seen one run super well at matches.

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Living in one of the areas where PCC's got insanely popular insanely fast, there are definitely guns that I see run super reliably. There was definitely a lot of scrambling in the first year of PCC in USPSA, but there are now some pretty well-established "recipes" of part combos that work pretty darn well.

In contrast, I've seen people have insane levels of problems with the Ruger PCC's. But those are mostly used by old guys where I am, and old guys seem to have all kinds of skills at inducing malfunctions!

taliv said:

what i want to know is for a given course of fire, what are the average times and best times for PCC vs pistol

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I can only speak for IDPA, and there PCC VS Pistol a PPC has a definite advantage in both time and accuracy. When my club 1st started allowing PCCs we went with an 10+1 start and 10rd mags for reloads, just like SSP and ESP. Still the PCCs had an accuracy and speed advantage. Now we go with the regulation 32rd fully loaded mags, so the average CoF a PCC guy will shave about 2-4 seconds alone just due to the lack of a reload. Add in some head shots & distance, and the delta becomes more apparent. We often set up cover to force shoulder transitions to at least even things out some.