Rifle masquerading as a pistol

Status
Not open for further replies.

FlSwampRat

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,675
Location
Broward County, Fl
In a nutshell, the genesis of this question is we had an AR rifle come out with a lower marked "PISTOL".

Suppose someone buys an AR rifle, somewhere down the road puts a pistol upper on it and an arm brace. I know you can't legally "unmake" a rifle like that legally, but it seems to me, as a dealer in used firearms, there's no actual way for me to know if an AR pistol I'm offered for sale was originally built in what configuration.

And, actually, in FLA, since there's no gun registration, there's no way for the government to know in that case either. If a gun was registered in another state, that's a different story.

So, what do the legal minds here think of the legal liability of inadvertently taking in a rifle illegally remanufactured (switched uppers) into a pistol that is now an SBR?
 
You can contact the NFA Division, give them the Serial number and they can tell you if it’s a registered NFA item. If it’s currently in an SBR configuration, it should come up as a registered NFA item. If it isn’t, it’s not legal as it sits. Can’t help you with the pistol configuration concern.
 
You can contact the NFA Division, give them the Serial number and they can tell you if it’s a registered NFA item. If it’s currently in an SBR configuration, it should come up as a registered NFA item. If it isn’t, it’s not legal as it sits. Can’t help you with the pistol configuration concern.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. My concern is as a dealer.

Someone takes a legal AR rifle, swaps out upper for a pistol upper and stock for an arm brace or just removes it. Now it's a pistol configuration, but it's never been registered as such. I know it is legally an NFA SBR, but how do I, as a dealer, know it's an SBR if not ever registered as such and should I have to run every AR Pistol as such?
 
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. My concern is as a dealer.

Someone takes a legal AR rifle, swaps out upper for a pistol upper and stock for an arm brace or just removes it. Now it's a pistol configuration, but it's never been registered as such. I know it is legally an NFA SBR, but how do I, as a dealer, know it's an SBR if not ever registered as such and should I have to run every AR Pistol as such?

That is definitely an ATF question as they would have the discretion to tell you what to do depending on how it was originally entered into the dealer's books. And you are right, it could be a registered SBR for all you know. I'm not sure that you could get competent legal advice here because you have incomplete facts based on how the firearm was originally sold and entered into records via the 4473 etc.
 
If it was never in a jurisdiction that required registration, then, while the "remanufacturer" committed a crime and the firearm itself is now in violation of the law, you as a dealer have no means of knowing that, nor does law enforcement.
 
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. My concern is as a dealer.

Someone takes a legal AR rifle, swaps out upper for a pistol upper and stock for an arm brace or just removes it. Now it's a pistol configuration, but it's never been registered as such. I know it is legally an NFA SBR, but how do I, as a dealer, know it's an SBR if not ever registered as such and should I have to run every AR Pistol as such?
A dealer records the aquisition of the firearm he receives as defined by ATF regs.
What it may have been originally is not at issue.
 
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. My concern is as a dealer.

Someone takes a legal AR rifle, swaps out upper for a pistol upper and stock for an arm brace or just removes it. Now it's a pistol configuration, but it's never been registered as such. I know it is legally an NFA SBR, but how do I, as a dealer, know it's an SBR if not ever registered as such and should I have to run every AR Pistol as such?

I understand that. You receive it as a pistol, there is no way to confirm it was originally a rifle without the original paperwork from the seller. If it WAS a rifle converted to a pistol, it is illegal. If you receive it as an SBR (with a stock not a brace) you can verify if it’s a legal SBR by contacting the NFA Division. If they don’t show it registered, it is an illegal SBR.

What am I missing?
 
That is definitely an ATF question as they would have the discretion to tell you what to do depending on how it was originally entered into the dealer's books. And you are right, it could be a registered SBR for all you know. I'm not sure that you could get competent legal advice here because you have incomplete facts based on how the firearm was originally sold and entered into records via the 4473 etc.
Well, yes, this is hypothetical, so technically there are no facts to be had. It came up during a bull session between myself and another one of our companies store managers. We were talking about the modular nature of AR's and we started wondering how in the heck we were supposed to know how a given AR pistol, brought in for sale or pawn, started life.

1. Started life as a pistol, we're legally fine.
2. Started life as a pistol, shoulder stock and 17" bbl added, it's now a rifle and legally fine.
3. Started life as a rifle, now with a tax stamp as a legal SBR we don't handle NFA weapons so we'd pass on it.
4.Started life as a rifle, now converted to an SBR with no one volunteering such information we'd have no clue.
And no way for us to find out as far as we'd been able to determine. That's the crux of it.

If you have an easily converted firearm such as an AR and it's converted illegally (situation 4) we're looking at a pistol that may or may not be legal and there's no way to tell. If it's home-built from assorted parts, contacting the maker of the lower would be of no particular help as they'd have no record of how it was finally assembled.

How would you know someone's AR pistol, offered for sale or pawn was a 1 or a 4 situation?
 
I understand that. You receive it as a pistol, there is no way to confirm it was originally a rifle without the original paperwork from the seller. If it WAS a rifle converted to a pistol, it is illegal. If you receive it as an SBR (with a stock not a brace) you can verify if it’s a legal SBR by contacting the NFA Division. If they don’t show it registered, it is an illegal SBR.
What am I missing?
The question isn't if an unregistered SBR is illegal, the question is how to know if an incoming AR pistol is, indeed, a pistol and not an illegal SBR?
 
I understand that. You receive it as a pistol, there is no way to confirm it was originally a rifle without the original paperwork from the seller.

The thing is, paperwork from PSA or whoever sold a stripped lower isn't going to have the first clue as to how it was finally assembled.
 
Well, yes, this is hypothetical, so technically there are no facts to be had. It came up during a bull session between myself and another one of our companies store managers. We were talking about the modular nature of AR's and we started wondering how in the heck we were supposed to know how a given AR pistol, brought in for sale or pawn, started life.

1. Started life as a pistol, we're legally fine.
2. Started life as a pistol, shoulder stock and 17" bbl added, it's now a rifle and legally fine.
3. Started life as a rifle, now with a tax stamp as a legal SBR we don't handle NFA weapons so we'd pass on it.
4.Started life as a rifle, now converted to an SBR with no one volunteering such information we'd have no clue.
And no way for us to find out as far as we'd been able to determine. That's the crux of it.

If you have an easily converted firearm such as an AR and it's converted illegally (situation 4) we're looking at a pistol that may or may not be legal and there's no way to tell. If it's home-built from assorted parts, contacting the maker of the lower would be of no particular help as they'd have no record of how it was finally assembled.

How would you know someone's AR pistol, offered for sale or pawn was a 1 or a 4 situation?

This is just my opinion and should be taken as such without any legal advice.

You have just posited Schrodinger's AR Pistol Paradox.

A) You would not know if the person ever had an unregistered or registered SBR if you, the buyer, was not informed. If the registered or unregistered SBR was presented to you for sale without informing you of the status, the law cannot compel the performance of the impossible. You might have it seized in an investigation but would not probably face legal jeopardy because the fault would be with the seller. This has happened in the past where people bought something, even relying on ATF letters, that was later determined to be illegal. Get a notarized statement from the seller indicating that the seller did not illegally convert the AR into an SBR or that the lower was not an registered SBR.

B) A different sort of problem begins with the lower marked pistol. Don't accept such and you would be ok. Pistol marked lowers can be legally converted to rifles but depending on when they put the stock on it and put the upper, it could have went through an illegal step. What is possible if you have a notary is that you get a statement from the seller indicating that the seller did not ever convert the AR pistol to an illegal configuration or that the lower is a registered SBR. That would demonstrate as far as you are able that you took affirmative steps to comply with the law. Rather difficult to criminal charge someone under the circumstances but then again the ATF could seize the weapon for investigative purposes reflecting back on the seller or manufacturer.

C) If the lower is marked multi-caliber, then AFAIK, the present configuration would be the determining factor regarding criminal charges unless you had contrary evidence presented at the time of acceptance. And one marked as rifle and you accepted it as a rifle in its rifle configuration, then what the other person did or did not do with uppers is not on you as a purchaser absent the seller telling you of illegal actions. An additional step would be the affidavit mentioned above which would give you evidence that you sought to the best of your ability to comply with the law.
 
This is just my opinion and should be taken as such without any legal advice.

Of course. This is the internet version of sitting around a fire drinking coffee and maybe passing around a flask.

You have just posited Schrodinger's AR Pistol Paradox.

Well if it was easy.... :rofl:

B) A different sort of problem begins with the lower marked pistol. Don't accept such and you would be ok. Pistol marked lowers can be legally converted to rifles but depending on when they put the stock on it and put the upper, it could have went through an illegal step. What is possible if you have a notary is that you get a statement from the seller indicating that the seller did not ever convert the AR pistol to an illegal configuration or that the lower is a registered SBR. That would demonstrate as far as you are able that you took affirmative steps to comply with the law. Rather difficult to criminal charge someone under the circumstances but then again the ATF could seize the weapon for investigative purposes reflecting back on the seller or manufacturer.

101563801_lo_a.jpg

101563801_lo_e.jpg
 
Of course. This is the internet version of sitting around a fire drinking coffee and maybe passing around a flask.



Well if it was easy.... :rofl:



View attachment 895270

View attachment 895271

Yeah, your pictures show a conversion to rifle which is legal assuming the barrel is 16 plus inches long and no state prohibitions exist but whether or not the seller did something illegal is not determinable from direct evidence.

That is where if you do sail in perilous waters, you make every effort (such as the notarized affidavit) plus obtaining as much possible seller information that you did not buy an illegally converted item so you can indicate every reasonable attempt to stay within the law.

Ultimately, you might still have the rifle seized if the seller did something illegal to it that they did not tell you about but probably not face criminal charges --emphasis on probably. As a dealer, you might have other regulatory issues to deal with on reporting such that I know nothing about.
 
“What it may have been originally is not at issue.”

Not true.
Absolutely true. A licensee is required to record the type of firearm he receives. Period.
A Glock frame is recorded as "Other" in the bound book and on the 4473 as "Other firearm" on Que. 16 and as "Frame" on Que. 27.
That it may have been a complete pistol at some point is immaterial as to how the dealer records WHAT HE RECEIVED.

A dealer that receives a barreled action records it as "Other firearm" in the bound book, as "Other" on Que 16 and as "Receiver" on Que. 27.

It is not the dealers responsibility to determine the history of the firearm.
 
The question isn't if an unregistered SBR is illegal, the question is how to know if an incoming AR pistol is, indeed, a pistol and not an illegal SBR?
It's not your problem. If the firearm meets the definition of a Title I firearm (pistol, revolver, frame, receiver, shotgun, rifle, PG firearms, etc.) you record what you have.
As a licensee, you are REQUIRED to record what type of firearm you receive. You are NOT REQUIRED to research the provenance and history of firearms shipped to you.
 
This is just my opinion and should be taken as such without any legal advice.

You have just posited Schrodinger's AR Pistol Paradox.

A) You would not know if the person ever had an unregistered or registered SBR if you, the buyer, was not informed. If the registered or unregistered SBR was presented to you for sale without informing you of the status, the law cannot compel the performance of the impossible. You might have it seized in an investigation but would not probably face legal jeopardy because the fault would be with the seller. This has happened in the past where people bought something, even relying on ATF letters, that was later determined to be illegal. Get a notarized statement from the seller indicating that the seller did not illegally convert the AR into an SBR or that the lower was not an registered SBR.
And what in the heck kind of protection or indemnity is that supposed to provide? Zilch.

B) A different sort of problem begins with the lower marked pistol. Don't accept such and you would be ok. Pistol marked lowers can be legally converted to rifles but depending on when they put the stock on it and put the upper, it could have went through an illegal step. What is possible if you have a notary is that you get a statement from the seller indicating that the seller did not ever convert the AR pistol to an illegal configuration or that the lower is a registered SBR. That would demonstrate as far as you are able that you took affirmative steps to comply with the law. Rather difficult to criminal charge someone under the circumstances but then again the ATF could seize the weapon for investigative purposes reflecting back on the seller or manufacturer.
The word "pistol" marked on a firearm of any type has no legal meaning. I can engrave "machine gun" on my AR........it doesn't make it a machine gun.

C) If the lower is marked multi-caliber, then AFAIK, the present configuration would be the determining factor regarding criminal charges unless you had contrary evidence presented at the time of acceptance. And one marked as rifle and you accepted it as a rifle in its rifle configuration, then what the other person did or did not do with uppers is not on you as a purchaser absent the seller telling you of illegal actions. An additional step would be the affidavit mentioned above which would give you evidence that you sought to the best of your ability to comply with the law.
"Marked as rifle"? What Federal law requires this? No, Such. Law.
 
So why can’t a dealer contact the maker and find out how it was originally shipped? If shipped as a bare receiver you could theoretically contact the shop that sold it and ask them to put you in contact with the first buyer. I’m not sure they would be amenable to such a request, and even if they were the buyer might just tell you to pound sand when you call. But they might also decide to tell you if they first built it as a rifle or pistol.

Or, you could just build it out as a rifle and sell it that way. No legal jackpot there.

As a practical matter I doubt there’s a jackpot anyway, since you wouldn’t knowingly be violating the law because you didn’t convert it to a pistol.
 
So why can’t a dealer contact the maker and find out how it was originally shipped? ....
1. There isn't a requirement to do so.
2. It IS a requirement to record what I receive.
3. Who the heck has time to chase down the history and provenance of every used firearm? I sure as heck don't.
4. But IF I DID........You mean manufacturers like Colt? They sold these and claimed they were shipped as "rifles". (even though they didn't meet the definition of rifle)
https://www.colt.com/detail-page/colt-le6920-oem1-556-161-lpgb-blk
169392.jpg
 
Last edited:
1. There isn't a requirement to do so.
2. It IS a requirement to record what I receive.
3. Who the heck ha time to chase down the history and provenance of every used firearm? I sure as heck don't.
4. But IF I DID........You mean manufacturers like Colt? They sold these and claimed they were shipped as "rifles". (even though they didn't meet the definition of rifle)
https://www.colt.com/detail-page/colt-le6920-oem1-556-161-lpgb-blk
View attachment 895311
Well, it may not quack like a duck but it does at least cluck like a chicken.

I was thinking more along the lines of “bare receiver.”
 
And what in the heck kind of protection or indemnity is that supposed to provide? "Marked as rifle"? What Federal law requires this? No, Such. Law.

Goes to intent--just the same as making sure that you do not receive stolen goods from a shady seller.

I doubt you know what the ATF or local prosecutors would do if you unwitting bought a registered short barrel rifle that had a long barrel on it and the seller did not tell you. That is why my first advice was to ask the ATF for clarification.

Sorry that you misunderstood me about markings.
Marked as a rifle in the firearm's previous seller's bound volume or electronic records. There was a time where a lot of lowers were marked rifle or pistol on the 4473 which is why the whole multical came about and the ATF clarified their regulations.
 
Goes to intent--just the same as making sure that you do not receive stolen goods from a shady seller.
And how do you do that? There is no national database of stolen firearms available to FFL's to check if a gun is stolen. So there no way to know if a firearm you receive is stolen. If it arrives in a UPS/USPS/FedEx box how the heck is the dealer able to ascertain that the seller is a "shady seller"?o_O

I doubt you know what the ATF or local prosecutors would do if you unwitting bought a registered short barrel rifle that had a long barrel on it and the seller did not tell you.
I know EXACTLY what they would do.......EXACTLY nothing. That:s because an SBR not in SBR configuration IS NOT AN SBR!!! Take an SBR AR15 with 11.5"bbl, swap in a 16" bbl and you have a Title I rifle.

That is why my first advice was to ask the ATF for clarification.
Sometimes the LAST people to ask. And the local ATF office will likely just refer you to the appropriate portion of the CFR. They don't issue written ruling from the local office. Their verbal advice is worth the paper its printed on.

Sorry that you misunderstood me about markings.
Marked as a rifle in the firearm's previous seller's bound volume or electronic records. There was a time where a lot of lowers were marked rifle or pistol on the 4473 which is why the whole multical came about and the ATF clarified their regulations.
First, "multical" has nothing to do with anything.....that refers to caliber and a stripped lower receiver has no caliber until a barrel is attached. Again, the dealer records what is in front of him. If the firearm is marked "5.56" but actually is chambered in .300 Blackout......the dealer should record .300 Blackout as the caliber.

Until late 2008, Form 4473's only had "Handgun/Long Gun/Both" as options for "Type of Firearm". The correct choice for an AR lower, a pistol grip firearm that expels a shotgun shell, a silencer, a frame? Not there. That's why ATF updated the 4473, not because "multical".

Further, what a dealer marks in his bound book or records on the 4473 doesn't change what type of firearm it is. Plenty of dealers still fail to read the instructions and continue to record AR lowers as handguns or long guns because thats how they did it prior to 2008. Thankfully their numbers are dwindling. Those AR lowers don't become rifles or handguns because the dealer made a stupid boo boo.
 
Question: If an SBR becomes configured as a rifle and sold as such to a dealer or another party, it is still in the NFA registry as an SBR, regardless of its current configuration.

Are there any repercussions to the new owner by possessing it since it’s in the NFA registry as an SBR?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top