I'm struggling with my 9mm. I'm afraid it's a lost cause

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greyling22

greyling22

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Bear with me please, this is a little long.
So I've been loading lead 9mm for years. I had some very real teething problems early on with leading and keyholing etc, but I got them all sorted out by abandoning the lee FCD which was swaging down my bullets. But then I got a suppressor started having to rework my loads.

Here's the problem: I have a witness elite match. I love the gun, but I think the bore must be slightly oversized or something, because it really wants a bullet sized .358. Anything less and I get keyholing. And that's a problem I can easily fix. I also have a cmmg radially delayed ar9 with an 8" barrel, and it liked my oversized lead bullets too. As did the glock 43. Then I added a can to the mix and I had to back WAY down on my powder charges to keep my 125grn bullets subsonic. Still not a problem, other than they are moving pretty slow out of the witness, and even slower out of the glock 43. But it all works. So I added a cz p07 with a fairly heavy can on it. Still worked, though I had a little bit of trouble ejecting all the time because my loads were so light. So I lightened the recoil spring just a but and it worked well. And it worked 100% with the can off.

Then I changed bullets away from a plain lead I cast, to a coated lead bullet from brazos precision to keep from leading up my can and piston so bad and problems started. [First off, brazon precision has been a great company to deal with, and their bullets are well cast and are spot on as far as advertised weight, diameter and consistency. They are delivering exactly what I ordered.]

I ordered some .358 truncated cone 125 grn coated bullets. They all have weighed 127grn and are sized .358. should be an easy swap from my lee 358-125-rf https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/7753 that drop about 126 grn and are then sized to .358.

The .358 brazos bullets run just fine in the glock, the witness, and the unsuppressed cz. They jam in the ar9 and the suppressed cz. In the cz, the slide won't quite go into battery. It stops about 1/8" from fully forward and has to be pushed the rest of the way with my thumb maybe 8 out of every 10 rounds. The cmmg ar9, about 4 out of 10 rounds, appears to go fully into battery, but when the hammer drops it doesn't go bang and the primer has not been struck, and I cannot pull back the charging handle. I have to bang the butt on the table while holding on the to charging handle and the round ejects.

So it's acting like the bullet is either oversized or the ogive is too far forward. I have seated the bullets as deep as they will go and the problem persisted. I have run them though a lee 357 post sizing factory crimp die, which I could feel the bullet being squished a little, and that actually made the problem worse in the cz, and a little better in the AR. I tried running them through a lee 380 FCD to really squish the bullet down. That should have fixed an oversized bullet for sure, and it sill gave me problems.

My goal would be to keep buying coated bullets from brazos, because I don't really have time or situation (toddlers+lead casting= bad) to cast any more, and I like the coating to not lead up my can. I'd also love to have just 1 bullet that I could load for all my firearms so I could not have to keep track up 2 or 3 different 9mm loads. Brazos has many different 9mm and 357 bullet weights and profiles I suppose I could try.
9mm https://www.brazosprecision.com/9mm_c_15.html I had avoided the 9mm ones because they won't offer a 358 diameter
357 https://www.brazosprecision.com/38-Special357-Magnum_c_13.html only the truncated cone looked like it would work right in semi autos.


Whew, that was a lot of words. Does anybody have and suggestions other than pay 25% more for a plated bullet? I am open to abandoning the p07 in favor of a different 9mm host pistol if it is known to have a tight chamber or something. I'm not in love with it. I do rather like the cmmg ar9 though.

the 2 bullets in the picture are rounds ejected from the ar9 after they jammed, were ejected, and at least 1 was tried again. They were loaded as short as possible.
20200315_100555.jpg The picture with 4 items in it are, from left to right, a factory 115 grn 9mm. My old cast lead 124 grn lee bullet. They brazos bullet loaded as deeply as possible. And unloaded brazos bullet. Apparently I took the picture at a slight angle because it looks funny.
20200315_101945.jpg
 
Try seating the bullets deeper. You may need to appropriately lower the charge to account for the increased pressure although with light subsonic loads, you're probably a long way from max pressure. The straight part of the TC bullet profile is jamming into the leade of some of your chambers. If you seated the bullet to the point at which the edge of the cone meets the case mouth, if the RN bullets feed and fire in all your guns, this will too.

This is an example with a 40S&W bullet in a case, but you can see what I mean to seat the bullet to where the cone meets the case mouth.

v9zaMDSa_o.jpg

Here is a Lee 355-120-TC seated flush and a plunk test with an M&P 9 barrel.

wULOCjBp_o.jpg

Are you seating and crimping on the same station in one step? If so, stop it. You are most likely starting the crimp while still pushing the bullet into the case. That's what's likely shaving the coating/lead on your finished round. Try seating some bullets with the die body cranked up a revolution so that the case mouth is not being touched. You won't shoot these but if you see no shaving, then you know the combination of seating and crimping is causing the build up around the case mouth. This can also prevent the round from chambering 100%. You may need to buy a separate taper crimp die to close the mouth of the case. You don't need to crimp much beyond vertical.

A Lee taper crimp die is cheap and you can adjust it up or down to give more or less crimp and unlike the FCD, it does not size the finished round and swage the bullet.
https://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html

The web page says you don't need it with a modern seat/crimp die but it doesn't say that the seat/crimp die won't shave lead if you try to seat and crimp fat cast bullets.
 
How do the match winners from rmr compare to the price of what your loading now? If your not casting yourself which is a decent savings is the low cost jacketed bullet out of reach. I immagine in the child scenario your not shooting thousands a month.
 
Have you tried jacketed bullets for the Witness? More money for sure but maybe it just needs a different diet than the other guns.
I have had excellent results with the RMR 124gr MPRs and Matchwinners.
5% discount for THR members.
 
I’ve shot a lot of plated and coated bullets out of Tanfo/Witnesses. Even some bare lead, and a lot of jacketed, too. I’ve never shot a non-elite/base model Witness, but they generally do NOT have oversized barrels or difficulty stabilizing bullets. I’ve never managed to get any of mine to keyhole with anything. That’s not some “normal” thing.
 
Brazos bullets are about $0.05 a piece. RMR bullets are about $0.08 apiece. $0.03 a pop doesn't seem like much but * 5000 and it is $150 a year. that adds up year after year.

I also realized why it looks like I'm getting bad lead shaving. After I had made those bullets and was having issues with chambering, I went back and seated them all deeper by a little bit. So I was seating an already crimped bullet. That accounts for the lead shaving. Do you think that build up from the reseating is what is jamming into the leade?

I have attached a photo of a freshly loaded, non-reseated bullet. it might be shaving still. On my old bullets, there was a big crimp groove so I never had an issue.

20200315_151958.jpg


maybe I do need a taper crimp die. I can back off the crimp, seat a few, then screw the die back in and crimp and see if that fixes anything......
 
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So, am I to understand that you are assuming that your bore is larger than it should be and are already working with .358 bullets?

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. First, if you suspect an out of spec bore, you should slug the barrel and make sure.

I’ve loaded well over 250,000 rounds of 9mm and have found it to be a very easy caliber to load for. Are you running your loaded rounds through a case gauge?

I think you’re applying bandages to problems. If you want to load subsonic, use 147s. That’s what they’re for.

slug your barrels and know what you’re working with.

Get rid of anything that sizes the loaded round. Seat and taper crimp separately.
 
greyling22 said:
maybe I do need a taper crimp die. I can back off the crimp, seat a few, then screw the die back in and crimp and see if that fixes anything......
Click to expand...

That would work. If you are using a single stage press, there is no need to buy a separate crimp die since you will be doing these in batch mode anyway. If you have a progressive and an open station, the taper crimp die can go in the spot after the seating die. Are you flaring (expanding) the case mouth prior to seating the bullet? You should be able to set the bullet in the case and it should sit there without you holding the bullet steady but not so much that the case mouth looks like the end of a trombone <g>.

Are all the bullets passing the plunk test in all your guns? It does look like a small amount of coating/lead is building up on the case mouth which can cause a jammed bolt or failure to completely go into battery.
 
greyling22 said:
Brazos bullets are about $0.05 a piece. RMR bullets are about $0.08 apiece. $0.03 a pop doesn't seem like much but * 5000 and it is $150 a year. that adds up year after year.

I also realized why it looks like I'm getting bad lead shaving. After I had made those bullets and was having issues with chambering, I went back and seated them all deeper by a little bit. So I was seating an already crimped bullet. That accounts for the lead shaving. Do you think that build up from the reseating is what is jamming into the leade?

I have attached a photo of a freshly loaded, non-reseated bullet. it might be shaving still. On my old bullets, there was a big crimp groove so I never had an issue.

View attachment 899344


maybe I do need a taper crimp die. I can back off the crimp, seat a few, then screw the die back in and crimp and see if that fixes anything......
Click to expand...
So your going back to casting your own to save that 150 a year? And Brazos has free shipping?
 
greyling22 said:
Then I changed bullets away to a coated lead bullet from brazos precision
Click to expand...
greyling22 said:
They jam in the ar9 and the suppressed cz. In the cz, the slide won't quite go into battery. It stops about 1/8" from fully forward and has to be pushed the rest of the way with my thumb maybe 8 out of every 10 rounds. The cmmg ar9, about 4 out of 10 rounds, appears to go fully into battery, but when the hammer drops it doesn't go bang and the primer has not been struck, and I cannot pull back the charging handle. I have to bang the butt on the table while holding on the to charging handle and the round ejects.
Click to expand...

Could the .358" diameter bullet just be to big for the 2 guns?

When measuring a loaded round , they should not be larger in diameter then .381"
20200315_182613.jpg
 
No, I'm trying not to go back to casting. Brazos is local, so I can pick up for free.

358 works fine when no can is on the cz, and when they are loaded much hotter. and they do pass the plunk test I think it has to be a length issue rather than a diameter issue, because the 380 post sizing do should have squeezed everything down smaller than even a 9mm bullet. I think the system is just barely working because the load is so light, that there is just no room for error.

I'm going to try a batch of 30-50 where I seat even deeper than they are now, then crimp separately. If that fixes the problem, then I'll buy a Crimp die and install it in the Dillon. I can just shoot these up in the Glock. It eats everything.
 
I can't help you along...and all I can tell you are my own findings.

I began reloading this time last year, around March, I began reloading 9mm. I have a new Dillon 550 and used their own dies for the setup. I've reload 115 grain, Hornady TAP, XTP, Berry's simple RN, and Missouri Hi-Tek 9mm parabellum.

Of those, I've only had an issue with the Missouri as no matter how hard I try, I cannot keep the bullet from shaving off the coating when I seat it. It doesn't lead any of my pistols, but I'm not a fan of that. The Berry's and Hornady load just fine. Like many have stated, I get the hour glass looking bullets when done, but they seat and run just fine.

I read many times that lead 9mm can be tricky and it is also the case with truncated cone 9mm, even in fmj. I know for a fact that many of my pistols do not like truncated cone bullets, so I stick to round nose or HP.
 
Typetwelve said:
I can't help you along...and all I can tell you are my own findings.

I began reloading this time last year, around March, I began reloading 9mm. I have a new Dillon 550 and used their own dies for the setup. I've reload 115 grain, Hornady TAP, XTP, Berry's simple RN, and Missouri Hi-Tek 9mm parabellum.

Of those, I've only had an issue with the Missouri as no matter how hard I try, I cannot keep the bullet from shaving off the coating when I seat it. It doesn't lead any of my pistols, but I'm not a fan of that. The Berry's and Hornady load just fine. Like many have stated, I get the hour glass looking bullets when done, but they seat and run just fine.

I read many times that lead 9mm can be tricky and it is also the case with truncated cone 9mm, even in fmj. I know for a fact that many of my pistols do not like truncated cone bullets, so I stick to round nose or HP.
Click to expand...

Get the custom Dillon powder funnel from Uniquetek. It works like a Lyman M die. I have them in every caliber offered.
 
FWIW, like TonyAngel I loaded a lot of 9MM back in the day. Tried all kinds of profiles, weights, diameters,etc. with cast bullets. Reliability was fine, but was never able to get accuracy equal to jacketed bullets. I load ammo for semi-autos to the longest OAL. Makes that cartridge break over angle from feed ramp to chamber less acute. I'm all for slugging the barrel. Bore diameters are sometimes not what we may assume.

For $150.00 or so a year, I wouldn't hesitate to use plated bullets. I switched to plated bullets years ago for general range use. Makes life easier with no accuracy, reliability, leading, etc. issues......ymmv
 
greyling22 said:
and it is $150 a year. that adds up year after year.
Click to expand...

The cheapest alternative (casting) does not fit family life. (Which is totally understandable.)
The next cheapest alternative (buying local lead bullets) only works in 3/5ths of the firearms.
And it is desirable to only have one load for all five firearms (counting the suppressed and unsuppressed CZ as 2)
Diameter .358" is necessary for the witness
Subsonic is required for the suppressor.

This is a case of stacking requirements, not that much different from having various friends over for dinner. Someone is gluten free. Another is dairy free. Another has an allergy. Before you know it, the only thing that everyone could have is water.

How much would you be willing to pay for function in all five? How much time are you willing to devote to solving the issue? If the problem goes on too long, that $150 will seem cheaper with every range trip you don't use the suppressor or don't take the AR-9.

The plain fact is that not all firearms of a certain caliber will work with one handload, especially those that have special requirements like a suppressor or PCC's/AR pistols.

It is a simple price/quality/schedule problem in that it is extremely rare for one solution to attain the trifecta of being the cheapest (price), best functioning (quality), with the least time needed to workup (schedule).

Right now, all you have is a low price for a handload that works in 3/5ths of the firearms and is frankly terrible in the other two. Better functioning would most likely require more time for multiple load workups since you may need to adjust the OAL and charge weight for the different firearms. Or, that may not work and still require additional money for bullets that work in all firearms with different charge weights.

I get that everyone is trying to find a diamond in the rough and the one simple solution that fits every problem, but a combination of multiple loads or better bullets would get closer to better performance.
 
I feel that what you have said is the beauty of reloading.

The problem is that there is a rare occasion where the best answer is the one everyone else is saying. Like anything else, I read, and read, and then read some more about reloading 9mm. I've lost count at the times I've read that someone stopped loading cast bullets because of issues. It's no different from the people that stray away from truncated cone 9mm because they do not feed properly in their personal firearms.

Me, I'm sticking to Berry's plated RN. They load well, they function flawlessly, they've proven as accurate as any off the shelf ammo I've bought...and my current price on them is $6.10/50. I'm sure I could find a cheaper way to load, but with these running so well, why bother?
 
So it's acting like the bullet is either oversized or the ogive is too far forward.
Click to expand...

We just had a thread on that and forest r posted photos that show the likely issue.

The barrels that don’t mind the bullet will look more like this.

F8004A55-4081-40F9-A6F5-BD365EEA1084.jpeg

Than the ones that are “sticky”.

55E1D92F-03B9-4274-8CCE-F1E9F951ED39.jpeg

A reamer that will cut a little lead will fix your problem or another bullet. You can even rent reamers, only need to do that once for less than $150 a year. That said, 150/yr is only .41/day, to buy bullets ready to go or feed a starving child abroad.
 
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UPDATE: I loaded 40 where I seated in 1 step and crimped in another. I also shortened the OAL for a tiny amount. I believe they are 1.05 now rather than 1.1 long.
Ran 25 through the suppressed cz and 15 through the AR. All 40 fired flawlessly. (well, the AR had some issues that were related to the JP spring being too short, but shimming it with a quarter fixed that and they all fired fine after that. And when they weren't firing, they easily ejected. No pounding the stock on the table to eject the round.) I'm going to buy a taper crimp die and load another hundred before I declare victory and go into mass production, but for now, it looks promising.
 
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