New to re loading

Load a few with both and range test.
One hopes your “ladder” testing any way.
I load 15 or so of different powder weights, log them, range test then make a selection from that for further development.
The fact your using a manual speaks volumes. Use them for comparison.

Mossy welcome. You got it. The col varies and best is to plunk in barrel out of gun to make sure. I know max for my guns and magazines. The lower limit is more an issue to me as pressure rises. You have a good powder that is forgivable but like you said work up. Not familiar with that bullet but a quick look i go from 1.22 to 1.26 in 230 rn.

I'm new also and have run into this as well. the bullet manufacturer knows their bullet - so, that data is the best place to start. one thing to pay attention to is the shorter OAL reduces the capacity of the case (sort of, sometimes)- so, my understanding is the deeper the bullet is seated, the less case capacity will be there and makes more pressure. The shorter OAL might be because of a different shape bullet, I have some that are round nose, but have a flat point, and lining things up with other bullets, they seat exactly to the same depth, even though the OAL is different. Point being, try to find out why OAL is shorter. If the bullet seats deeper in the case, certainly don't run loads at the higher end of the data for sure, certainly without slowly working up to it first, which is the standard recommendation anyways for how to develop loads.

Mossy84 said:

Just looking at my SAAMI book, and it says 45 acp COL has a min/max range of 1.190" - 1.275". Maybe dumb statement, but I am guessing with that range, COL is just determined by what works best in your gun ?

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Yes, essentially. My personal experience is that as long as your gun and your loads are within SAAMI tolerances you are good. The exact figure (within the range) is less important than is ensuring all your cases are that same length.

Welcome to the forum Mossy84.
If I'm not mistaken, the OAL of 1.275" listed in your Lyman Manual is for a 230 gr. TMJ of some kind - it doesn't specify what kind.

film495 said:

I'm new also and have run into this as well. the bullet manufacturer knows their bullet - so, that data is the best place to start.

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As film495 said, the data for that bullet, from the bullet manufacturer (in your case, 230gr RN Campro bullets) is "the best place to start" as far as overall cartridge length is concerned.

Your loading for a caliber/ cartridge that head spaces on its mouth with a taper crimp. OAL is only Germaine as it applies to magazine fit and chamber fit to a degree. Some bullet designs wil have a longer portion that may extend past the leade and touch the rifling. Your loading manuals are using bullet design to determine OAL. IMO.
If you shooting a 1911 type pistol. Dismount the barrel. First check for brass length. Drop a sized case in the barrel, use a straight edge to see if the case sits flush with the barrel face. Drop a loaded round into the barrel. Should go in freely with the same case head relation to barrel face as the empty case. An empty case may even sit just ever so slightly below barrel face never above.
The above assuming you don’t use a case head space gage.

Mossy84 said:

I have read lots of post on all kinds of forums, and one things i have seen is a lot of people saying 45 acp casing rarely lengthen, they usually shorten, now I dont know if this is true or not, and maybe I was silly for just assuming, but the one thing I didnt purchase was a trim kit for my casings, is this something i should be inspecting before dropping powder and making live rounds ?
And thank you for all in advance for bearing with me if I am asking silly questions, I dont really want hurt me, my gun or the guy beside me when I go to the range for the first time !!! LOL

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I would not buy a trimmer until you need one. My general experience has been that relatively low intensity cartridges (like the 45 ACP) tend not to be too rough on cases, and that any dimensional changes will affect all of the cases from one batch about the same way. I personally will spot check a handful of each lot of brass after tumbling, just to ensure that they are all about the same length.

.38 Special said:

I would not buy a trimmer until you need one. My general experience has been that relatively low intensity cartridges (like the 45 ACP) tend not to be too rough on cases, and that any dimensional changes will affect all of the cases from one batch about the same way. I personally will spot check a handful of each lot of brass after tumbling, just to ensure that they are all about the same length.

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Same here. All I trim is stuff for my deer rifle pretty much. I dont obsess over pistol reloads really. As long as I can hit steel, I'm happy, happy, happy.

I can only say I’ve loaded thousands of rounds of 45ACP and have never trimmed a case in that or any other straight wall pistol case, although 9MM is limited and 40S&W nada. Cases grow in length by stretching with modern pistol cases I wouldn’t think that would happen except under some extreme high pressure loads. .

Mossy84 said:

Hello all,
I am new to reloading, I have purchased all the equipment i will need, bought numerous handgun reloading manuals. Now my question is this,
In my Lymans book, it says my COL should be 1.275" for my 45 acp. I am using Hodgdon HP-38 powder, and my bullets are Campro 230gr RN. The Campro load data states min/max load of 4.2 - 5.3 grains powder, but their COL is 1.250". I have loaded dummy rounds ranging from 1.250" to 1.260" and both chamber and eject smoothly. I guess my question is which COL do i use, Lymans or bullet manufactures 1.250", or does it even matter since both seem to work well on the dummy rounds i have made.

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The Lyman manual lists the maximum OAL, not the recommended OAL, for a particular caliber and bullet. I use other sources, chiefly the bullet manufacturer's specifications, to find the range and try to get my OAL somewhere in the middle of the range, usually nearer to the shorter end of the range, as most calibers I load for are shot out of multiple guns, and I find that the shorter the OAL is, the less issues I have with seating and feeding. I never teeter on either edge of the range, though, as the OAL will vary a bit from round to round, especially if you're using mixed range brass, as I do.

Mossy84 said:

I have read lots of post on all kinds of forums, and one things i have seen is a lot of people saying 45 acp casing rarely lengthen, they usually shorten, now I dont know if this is true or not, and maybe I was silly for just assuming, but the one thing I didnt purchase was a trim kit for my casings, is this something i should be inspecting before dropping powder and making live rounds ?
And thank you for all in advance for bearing with me if I am asking silly questions, I dont really want hurt me, my gun or the guy beside me when I go to the range for the first time !!! LOL

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I've never, ever trimmed a pistol cartridge. I keep my rifle cartridges trimmed though.

Welcome Aboard !

Mossy84 said:

Hello all,
I am new to reloading, Now my question is this, In my Lymans book, it says my COL should be 1.275" for my 45 acp. Do i use, Lymans or bullet manufactures 1.250", or does it even matter since both seem to work well on the dummy rounds i have made.

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• You use the OAL that's best for you.

• All load manuals list the OAL they used to test their load. Like the weight of powder, the OAL is a necessary part of the data which results in the chamber pressure. Therefore, the listed OAL is NOT a recommendation, it is simply part of their report. What the Load Manual is saying is "This is what we used and no one got killed. Now go make it work for you."

• You see load testing, and the manuals that derive from it, are only concerned with chamber pressure. Chamber pressure is what will kill you. Everything we do in reloading is to control chamber pressure.

To fully understand those statements, let's look at the guns they use...





As you can see, it's a "gun" in name only. In reality, it's a single-shot hunk of steel !! It's not even a "handgun", much less an auto pistol. So the guys in the lab can't tell you anything about how that round will feed in your handgun. Therefore they cannot advise you on what OAL to use. And this is why Starting Loads often will not operate the slide on an auto pistol. Their gun doesn't have a slide !

You've been given a recipe that's proven safe. Now the real reloading begins. The trick is to go make it work in your gun !!

Mossy84 said:

I haven't dropped any powder yet, but my plan was to make 5 or so at min grain and at he 1.250" like Campro states, then slowly bump up powder and COL and see how they do. I think that's what you mean by ladder testing?

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► That's exactly the spirit to take !
Start at a moderate OAL like 1.250" that gives good operating clearance. Use the Lyman data, but because you shortened the OAL from Lyman's data, you've got to back off their powder suggestions. 45ACP is very low pressure, so lower all their loads by 0.1gr and you should be OK. BUT, you must begin at the Starting Load and work up slowly. If you have a chrono, then use it. If not inspect the cases from each load group for signs of over pressure.

► You may regret !
You should not change the load AND the OAL. Once you choose an OAL it's best to stay with it, unless of course the gun hates it. Think about it, if you change 2 variables and it works (or doesn't work) how will you ever assign credit/ blame ? In testing, you should only change one variable at a time. That's how you learn what works in your gun.

Mossy84 said:

I have read lots of post on all kinds of forums, and one things i have seen is a lot of people saying 45 acp casing rarely lengthen, they usually shorten.

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• Straight wall pistol cases usually get shorter as they are reloaded. If you trim your cases, they'll simply end up too short to use at some point. Please don't do that.

• Please do track a single case through 5 or 6 firings and see for yourself. Then in place of internet rumors... you'll know.


Hope this helps.

COAL has mostly to do with where the bullet ogive meets the rifiling of the barrel in rifles. I believe for handguns, it's mostly about pressure.

Assuming the case length is at or less than max, the COAL will depend on bullet shape, composition and weight. For a given caliber, longer is heavier, shorter is lighter. Heavier, longer flat nose bullet decreases powder space causing increase in pressure, thus lower powder weight, for a given COAL. Conversley, same weight round nose with the same shape ogive will be shorter and can be seated deeper for the same pressure.

Most reloading data identifies specific mfgr's bullet, or mold number. Now, reloading data usually requires some interpolation, for me anyway, because in handguns, I shoot lead bullets by weight and shape not mfgr jacketed anything or "X" anything.... I don't shoot max anything, and don't exceed MY interpolated data.

I don't know how many people worry about bullet jump or seating on/off the lands in handguns. And I mean revolvers and pistols, not AR short barrel rifles pretending to be pistols.

Honestly, when I’m loading any sort of lead projectile with any sort of a shoulder, I pretty much eyeball it and make sure that it looks right. The shoulder being about a penny’s thickness above the rim of the case. This usually turns out to be about 1.250.

You want your rounds to do two things. Be long enough to feed reliably and short enough that a loaded round doesn’t get hung up between the ejector and ejection port when you try to eject it.

You want your rounds to do two things. Be long enough to feed reliably and short enough that a loaded round doesn’t get hung up between the ejector and ejection port when you try to eject it. This is usually around 1.250 for me for round ball and SWCs.

TonyAngel said:

This is usually around 1.250 for me for round ball and SWCs.

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In relation to which dimension?

PWC said:

In relation to which dimension?

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COL. Sorry, I thought that was what we were talking about.

Tony Angel- Do you mean, as a general rule of thumb, where the ogive turns from the straight side toward the point, should be .125 or 1/8 th inch ahead of the case mouth?

Not arguing, just want to understand the .125

PWC said:

COAL has mostly to do with where the bullet ogive meets the rifiling of the barrel in rifles. I believe for handguns, it's mostly about pressure.

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It's the same for auto loaders. If the ojive KS the lands you get high pressure. Bullet profile will determine oal depending on free bore, the space between chamber and the lands.


My 9mm Smith 5904 barrel, short throat I have to load shorter oal of 1.120 with state line 124 lrn, bottom cartridge, Vs liberty 124 lrn liberty bullet, top cartridge, at 1.14.



Plunk test with state line 124 at 1.12"

Oal is a function of chamber fit and feeding from magazine.

Mossy84 said:

In my Lymans book, it says my COL should be 1.275" for my 45 acp. ...my bullets are Campro 230gr RN. The Campro load data states min/max load of 4.2 - 5.3 grains powder, but their COL is 1.250". ...I guess my question is which COL do i use, Lymans or bullet manufactures 1.250", or does it even matter since both seem to work well on the dummy rounds i have made.

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The pressure measured to determine the data was in part a function of how deeply the bullet base was set into the case. Since it is impractical to measure the depth of the bullet base, published data uses the COL. If Lyman used a bullet that was longer overall than the Campro bullet, then their bullet base may have been in the same place, creating the same volume combustion cylinder as the Campro does with a shorter overall length. Look at what bullet Lyman specified and what it's overall length is and how it compares to the Campro. Even if they're both 230 gr., the shape of the nose can make one slightly longer than the other. Plated versus jacketed can also make a difference in length. Another thing that can vary is the concave of the base of the bullet. Bearing these things in mind, you can interpret published data for one bullet when using another similar bullet.

So how much difference might it make if the only difference was 0.025" ? According to a calculation in Quickload using a Rainier 230 gr. plated RN bullet with 5.3 grains of HP-38, at 1.275" the pressure is 17247 psi and at 1.25" the same bullet and powder produce a peak pressure of 18983 psi. To put this in perspective, we can calculate the same pressure using a 1.275" COL but increasing the powder charge to 5.56 grains. Do not interpret these calculated pressure figures as equivalent to real pressures. It is not safe to develop a load with a calculator. The purpose of the calculation is simply to show an estimate of how much difference the 0.025" could make. What we see is it could make a little more than 1700 psi difference. We can be fairly sure it's not going to raise pressure by 5000 psi. There is no rationale for thinking that this difference alone is going to make an unsafe condition in a gun that is intact and sound. But you can also see that it does make a difference. If you were using a bullet longer than the one specified in the data, and you were a couple tenths of a grain over the published maximum charge, and you were using a magnum primer instead of the specified standard, and then you push it 0.025" deeper than specified, all of those things are going to add up and almost certainly put you well over the limit of what is safe.

My advice is to begin with the Campro data because the Lyman data is probably specified for a slightly different bullet. While Campro can't provide data that is specific to your individual gun, the COL specification has a very strong relationship to the specific bullet length.

I agree with the above advice concerning free-bore. It should also be considered and why the bullet manufacturer's data is prefered because they tested the specific length and ogive. But since the chamber dimensions of your gun may differ slightly, there is no subsitute for working up your own load.

PWC said:

Tony Angel- Do you mean, as a general rule of thumb, where the ogive turns from the straight side toward the point, should be .125 or 1/8 th inch ahead of the case mouth?

Not arguing, just want to understand the .125

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Yes, as a general rule of thumb, the overall length of the loaded round is 1.250.