Gun history facts that make my head spin.

Science worked back then and nothing changed.
New super metals were not discovered.
Nuclear fusion chambers were not invented.
Ray guns are still on the cusp of discovery.

Humans have not grown nor shrank appreciably, so the diameters and sizes and forces still work effectively.

If the old ways still work, do we need the ways?

(Um, yes. Yes we do. Nano wave beam emitters are awesome!)

No surprises there, 3 of the top 4 rifle cartridges are or were US military rounds, same for the top 2 handgun cartridges.

Most of the others have had a hundred years or more in production, thus so many guns to use them in.

The other best sellers are the result of cheap Chinese and Russian imported surplus rifles, and cheap imported ammo for them.

The .40 I'd attribute to the glut of cheap police trade in pistols.

Thanks for the info!

The only surprise to me is 30-30 being that high. Everyone I know has a 30-30 or three, but no one I know shoots 30-30 in high volume like they do other rounds.

Firearms are a very mature technology.

[QUOTE="Demi-human, post: 11435447, member: 243339....Humans have not grown nor shrank appreciably...[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this. If one looks back in history, THE, roughest, toughest SOB’s for a llooonnnggg time, were the knights (and Samurai’s, as well). If you look at a set of armor (or a Samurai’s gi), which were custom-made and extremely expensive, they are not large at all; an average, in-shape, man today, could never fit into one.
This is also born out by observing women’s dresses of the day, the size of furniture, etc.

Whether this is a result of additives to our food supply is debatable, but to state that humans haven’t grown appreciably is, IMNTBHO, incorrect.

The .223 Remington has civilian origins. The military adopted it, rather than the other way around.

The size of Human's interesting. My Daughter once owned an investment home that was built in the 19th Century. The steps were so short going to the upstairs bedrooms that my normal sized 10 feet overhung the steps by about half. My Daughter commented that people had smaller feet then. That it, or just saving wood? Also, the grips on 19th Century guns seem too small.

223/5.56 is so popular that my LGS just announced this week that it's all been sold, dont' bother coming

The 30/30 is still very popular in the North East as a deer round. Would not surprise me if half or more of the Local hunters in Maine use the round with either the Winchester 94 or the Savage 99.Many of these rural people buy the rounds a few at a time. Keeping myself and two boys in 30/30 Ammo for practice was a primary reason to get into hand loading.

People were less healthy, were not as well fed, modern medicine was in it's infancy, so generally did not live as long. Human size has not really changed over such a short period of time, from the medieval to modern times. But many of us are fatter because of food supply and lifestyles.

The gun facts listed above don't surprise me - there's always been a history of military cartridges and weapons migrating to civilian use. And if something works well, is cheap and reliable, there's not much need for change. And the guns themselves are very durable. Who will spend money to replace something if it works well, without a significant increase in utility? Kind of why I scratch my head about $800+ telephones, and how one bought 5 years ago is now "ancient".

30-30 is an undervalued round. Ive always wondered why more wasn't done with it.

I mean...leverevolution is cool and there's a new subsonic load but basically it's 150 or 170gr. Buffalo Bore does a "heavy" load at.....a whole 190grs

jmr40 said:

The only surprise to me is 30-30 being that high. Everyone I know has a 30-30 or three, but no one I know shoots 30-30 in high volume like they do other rounds.

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whughett said:

The 30/30 is still very popular in the North East as a deer round. Would not surprise me if half or more of the Local hunters in Maine use the round with either the Winchester 94 or the Savage 99.Many of these rural people buy the rounds a few at a time. Keeping myself and two boys in 30/30 Ammo for practice was a primary reason to get into hand loading.

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Very popular in the southeast also, in our thick forests a 100yd shot is about as long as you will find, 30-30 gets the job done, and the lever actions that launch it are light compact plentiful and easy to carry.

WVGunman said:

1. The service round used by imperial German forces in WW1 was the 9mm Parabellum. The most popular handgun round by sales in the United states in 2019 was ... the 9mm Parabellum. Theoretically, ammunition created for the German Army in 1914 could be loaded into a Glock made last month and fired today.

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And a 7.62x54R made in the USSR in 1941 could be fired in a Mosin Nagant made in 1941 in the US, in 2020. (I left out a round made in 1891 could be fired in Mosin made in 1891, because those that own Chatellerault M91's generally do not shoot them.)

unclenunzie said:

Who will spend money to replace something if it works well, without a significant increase in utility? Kind of why I scratch my head about $800+ telephones, and how one bought 5 years ago is now "ancient".

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You said it yourself. The utility. 5 years ago I still had a 'flip phone' that trying to get into the internet with was an exercise in futility. Improvements in signal transmission coupled with the apps available today make my cell phone more useful (and certainly more portable) than the desktop I wrote this on.

WVGunman said:

Except for .40 S&W, all of these rounds were created before 1910!!

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Again, all but .40 S&W were military rounds. .38 Spl. started as an improvement to the .38 Long Colt of the New Army Colts, and was used by the US military until 1986, mostly for pilots and CID.

The 40 S&W is 30 years old. This is the only semi auto round, in the last one hundred years that gained widespread use in the U.S. and in law enforcement. Every other handgun round listed is over 100 years old.

9mm 1902 (George Luger)
45 acp 1904 (Automatic Colt Pistol by John Browning)
38 Spl. 1898 (the only revolver round listed in the top 5 developed by S&W )
380 acp 1908 (Automatic Colt Pistol by John Browning)

We can mention the 22 l.r. the most popular of all, 1884.

The 40 S&W is the only semi auto round, in the last century, that gained widespread use in the U.S. and in law enforcement.

The 357 Magnum is the only revolver round, other than the 38 Spl that gained wide popularity with the public and law enforcement in the U.S. Introduced 1935.
Other popular revolver rounds, popular with the public, are also mostly over a century old. 44 Spl and 45 Colt being examples. The 357 mag and 44 mag being the exception.

The 38 Automatic pistol round (38 acp) was a semi rimmed round designed by John Browning in 1898. It was chambered in a number of semis with some success in the U.S. and internationally until it was chambered in a new gun the Colt Super 38 in 1928 and the load for the round beefed up. The round became known, over time, as the 38 Super, same round just a heavier loading.

unclenunzie said:

... Human size has not really changed over such a short period of time, from the medieval to modern times. ...

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That conflicts with something that I read awhile back about one of the effects of a change to a more Western diet in Japan since the end of WWII. In only ~50 years the average height of the Japanese has markedly increased.

GBExpat said:

That conflicts with something that I read awhile back about one of the effects of a change to a more Western diet in Japan since the end of WWII. In only ~50 years the average height of the Japanese has markedly increased.

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"In 50 years, according to statistics kept by the Ministry of Education, the average height of Japanese 11-year-olds has increased by more than 5 1/2 inches. The height of girls, who grow faster at that age, meanwhile, has increased even more.

So far, there has been no definitive explanation for the increased growth, but it is widely believed to be caused by improvements in diet and the elimination of once-common infectious diseases, both expressions of Japan's swift postwar economic rise. According to one recent study, for instance, intake of animal protein has doubled to 60 grams a day since 1960."

If that's what you refer to, it's not a change in human development but simple improved nutrition. We are not in disagreement -
food yes, fundamental changes to human genetics? No. We are the same as we have been for thousands and thousands of years. Now if the level of Earth's oxygen were to double, then yeah, after a very long time, we might get much larger.

Beretta is the oldest company still in business manufacturing firearms and firearms parts. They started back in 1526. Soon to be 500 years.

SHOOT1SAM said:

If you look at a set of armor (or a Samurai’s gi), which were custom-made and extremely expensive, they are not large at all; an average, in-shape, man today, could never fit into one.

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That was accepted for a long time, but I think the current prevailing opinion on this is that the small armor (and other items) are an example of survivorship bias. Suits big enough to fit the typical warrior-sized person tended to be used/reused until they got smashed. See https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ieval-ancestors-just-tall-says-new-study.html for example.

tipoc said:

The 40 S&W is 30 years old. This is the only semi auto round, in the last one hundred years that gained widespread use in the U.S. and in law enforcement. Every other handgun round listed is over 100 years old.

9mm 1902 (George Luger)
45 acp 1904 (Automatic Colt Pistol by John Browning)
38 Spl. 1898 (the only revolver round listed in the top 5 developed by S&W )
380 acp 1908 (Automatic Colt Pistol by John Browning)

We can mention the 22 l.r. the most popular of all, 1884.

The 40 S&W is the only semi auto round, in the last century, that gained widespread use in the U.S. and in law enforcement.

The 357 Magnum is the only revolver round, other than the 38 Spl that gained wide popularity with the public and law enforcement in the U.S. Introduced 1935.
Other popular revolver rounds, popular with the public, are also mostly over a century old. 44 Spl and 45 Colt being examples. The 357 mag and 44 mag being the exception.

The 38 Automatic pistol round (38 acp) was a semi rimmed round designed by John Browning in 1898. It was chambered in a number of semis with some success in the U.S. and internationally until it was chambered in a new gun the Colt Super 38 in 1928 and the load for the round beefed up. The round became known, over time, as the 38 Super, same round just a heavier loading.

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So perhaps there isn’t much room for improvement in caliber, velocity, bullet design ect.
What’s the future. Case less ammunition, which would need a better ignition systems. Better propellants perhaps.

WVGunman said:

. Here are the top selling centerfire rifle cartridges of 2016-2019, according to Guns.com:
1. - .223 Remington
2. - 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester)
3. - 7.62x39mm
4. - .30-06 Springfield
5. - .30-30 Winchester
6. - 7.62x54R (Russian)

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I have a suspicion there is a huge volume difference between each of these rankings. Given there isn't a lot of bulk 06 ball flying off the shelves, I would chalk up 4 & 5 as hunting ammo sales (which means 1 or 2 boxes per year by average hunters) so it's probably only a fraction of the bulk sales for 1, 2, and 3. Before the surplus 54r ammo dried up it was probably ahead of 30-30 amd maybe the -06 as well. At this point there are a big-o bunch of Mosin rifles out there compared to other various hunting rifle calibers so I think it will keep it's position so long as the ammo is widely available for a reasonable cost.

If the Indian Fighters hadn't pushed for a return to .45, the .40 Colt Automatic could have predated the Smith by about 80 years.

entropy said:

Again, all but .40 S&W were military rounds. .38 Spl. started as an improvement to the .38 Long Colt of the New Army Colts, and was used by the US military until 1986, mostly for pilots and CID.

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Later than 1986.

USAEUR Army pilots were still carrying S&Ws and Rugers in 1992 and later, tankers were still toting M1911A1s and M3 through this period as well...

lysanderxiii said:

Later than 1986.

USAEUR Army pilots were still carrying S&Ws and Rugers in 1992 and later, tankers were still toting M1911A1s and M3 through this period as well...

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True. 1986 was when the changeover started, I was with the 7th ID(L), so we got ours right behind the 82nd and the 101st.