Military marksmen

It's factory loaded ammo to meet military specs. They don't just go to Cabela's and pick up a few boxes, they sign contracts with ammo makers to make ammo to the specs they want. You and I can go out and buy factory loads that are every bit as accurate as anything the military uses or we can handload.

But hand loading will save me money. I can buy a box of expensive factory target loads for $50-$80 per box. Or load the same bullets for $20/box.

In general a precision marksman will have ammo matched to the rifle, but not handloads.

Some niche organizations may allow use of handloads but I dont think its common for active duty.

I hate when I know I've read something but can't find where it was. My understanding is that handloads are developed in-house for certain military match shooting. Customized manufactured loads are done under contract for different precision platforms used during deployment. Wish I could remember where it was and post the link.

Per my understanding, shooters at the AMU get custom loads while “unit marksman” get regular issue ammo. They just get what seems to work well and horde as much as they can of the same lot number and use it til it’s gone. But I was never military so that is simply what I have heard secondhand and have read here.

From a tactical perspective, having about zero active-duty competition experience:

Shot everything ranging from de-linked machine-gun ammo (5.56, 7.62 & .50) through Special Ball & Match to *local purchased* or privately bought factory loadings preferably from Federal. Lack of this versatility was one of and in fact the greatest reason I disliked the .300.

There was a time when Geneva Convention particulars or interpretations mattered more than they do now but the real change was the acceptance of *ballistic tipped* projectiles as being kosher. Big game changer in tactical specialized marksmanship loadings because of that.

Todd.

Something to contemplate-
- Some of the deadliest snipers used a Mosin-Nagant, firing combloc ammo of questionable quality

An interesting take on *Military Marksmen* in general, MistWolf's post more particularly and to an even greater degree the circumstances of one Raoul Lufberry of the French and U.S. Air Services in WWI.

He found early on that individually inspecting and cleaning each round as he loaded his own Lewis Guns returned a greater degree of performance in cycling and consistency (accuracy) while tapping into the same ammo available to everyone else.

In a *sniping* scenario, there're several critical elements to include, but not limited to; gun (as well as sighting), ammunition, shooter training or OJT experience and conditions as relates to each of the former.

Oddly, ammunition is at the lower end of the particulars-list. Especially in the cases of low-return expectations as in the Eastern Front of WWII or the *snipers* firing against forces of - or representative of South Vietnam.

Todd.

I figure modern snipers are shooting mass produced but good quality military match ammo.
I have seen pictures of military hand loading setups but that was for target ammo.

In WWI, Herbert W. McBride said snipers and marksmen sought out US name brand .303, finding it more accurate than arsenal products or contract ammunition from small companies hiring girls to load ammunition. (His term, ladies, not mine.)

It is factory loaded ammo but not the same mill run as regular GI ammo. For example one of my billets was SDM or squad designated marksman. Think of it as sniper-lite, I shot farther than regular infantry but did not attend the stalking, concealment, long term survival schooling of a regular scout sniper. My typical job was sniper support/spotter. Typically my issued ammo was M855. Occasionally I did zero with Mk262 ammo, which is a 77gr Matchking bullet that holds onto accuracy and energy at farther distance than a typical 5.56. In training I did about 25% of my marksmanship with mk262.

Some of the snipers I worked with were trained on the M82, and while they can delink a .50 from a M2 to use, the boxed rounds loaded specifically for the M82 grouped better. Another reason most snipers avoided this is M2 ammo (in combat) is linked API rounds (Armor Piercing Incendiary, white tip). When shooting a M82 you try to reduce variables that would affect a long distance shot. So they stick with ball or AP rounds in controlled lot boxes from the factory. They also have different barrel lengths, so shooting ammo designed for a heavy machine gun out of an anti material rifle is less than ideal.

Special sniper units like the AMU or international sniper competitions, tend to have a bit more flexibility and budget to play around with hand loading their own rounds for a specific rifle.

I have been shooting Bullseye Pistol for six or seven years. What ammunition I have seen, that I remember, with both the AMU and the Army Reserve is Atlanta Arms ammunition. The 45 ACP ammunition, I cannot not find on their web site anymore, and I don't know why. But the 45 ACP ammunition the 45 shooters were using is Atlanta Arms 185 gr JHP. I don't remember nor do I really care, about the 9mm ammunition, but it is by the same company.

Maybe you can see the black Atlanta Arms 9mm boxes this AMU shooter is using



Now last year, the Army reserve shooter next to me was using Eley Tenex "Red Box" Pistol Match ammunition in his 22 lr. It was ammunition issued to him. Red box is the most expensive Eley ammunition.

Per my understanding, shooters at the AMU get custom loads while “unit marksman” get regular issue ammo. They just get what seems to work well and horde as much as they can of the same lot number and use it til it’s gone. But I was never military so that is simply what I have heard secondhand and have read here.

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When I shot Across the Course at Camp Perry, the M14 shooters were using LC 168 grain SMK loaded ammunition out to 300 yards. I also saw the service teams using Federal Gold Medal match in 308 Win and 223 out to 300 yards. I remember the USMC Rifle Team using Black Hill match all the way out to 600 yards. For years the AMU had their own special 600 yard ammunition, and the USMC had Ammunition technicians loading their own special 600 yard ammunition. But, everything is subject to change. I remember talking to AMU 223 shooters at CMP Talladega, and they had to have loads that ran in everyone's rifle and that was a consideration in choice of bullet, and powder charge. I do believe that price is an important consideration. These teams have budgets. Paying Army personnel to load ammunition is expensive, and if the quality of commercial match is such, that it is not cost effective to have dedicated personnel loading tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of rounds, it makes sense to me to use the commercial ammunition. In my opinion, for a team round, it is hard to beat Federal Gold Medal Match. The stuff has been consistently great rifle ammunition.

Glen Zediker wrote of the AMU ordering .223 GM by the pallet load. When an order came in, they would pull a bullet and look at the powder. Extruded powder lots would be saved for 600 yards, Ball powder used for 200-300.

A friend had some Black Hills .308 match squirreled away. He would shoot it if caught short on handloads. He had to have separate sight dope, his handloads with the same bullet weight were loaded to higher velocity.

Jim Watson said:

Glen Zediker wrote of the AMU ordering .223 GM by the pallet load. When an order came in, they would pull a bullet and look at the powder. Extruded powder lots would be saved for 600 yards, Ball powder used for 200-300.

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The Military teams go through an amazing amount of ammunition. I asked one of those AMU shooters about the durability of his 1911, I was informed he was shooting around 5000 to 7500 rounds of 45 ACP through it, per month. Bullseye pistol shooters shoot 22 lr, 9mm, and 45 ACP each match, so triple that 7500 rounds as an estimate. Then, these same shooters cross over to rifle shooting and will be shooting a lot of rounds, though less, because rifle targets have to be pulled. Unless they are shooting on electronic targets, and they may, as these targets are becoming popular. The rifle targets at CMP Talladega are electronic and when I go down there I shoot so much ammunition it takes about three weeks after I return to size, trim, prime the stuff!

A bud of mine, his son joined one of those special Military outfits, like Delta Force, or Special Forces, heck if I remember the alphabet soup. His son was shooting tens of thousands of rounds per week, the round count was unbelievable. These guys were so proficient in point shooting that it was unbelievable.

A fellow shooter was a guard at Oak Ridge National Laboratories. They have nuclear stuff there. When the guards practiced, they used Federal Gold Medal Match in 223. They just burned that stuff up in semi auto and full auto. Incidentally, there are kill zones at these places. Zones where anyone is to be shot on sight. He had a story of anti nuclear protestors who had crossed through one of these areas and were not killed. They were captured before they got too far. These were old folks who had prepared their wills, they were trying for a media moment. The guy on duty might have been fired, don't know, he was under orders to shoot on sight. Someone in security got roasted, because these characters were in the zone for hours.

Might have been this group

Nun, 82, Two Other Activists at Oak Ridge Commit “Worst Ever Seen” Nuclear Security Breach

Nun sentenced to 35-months in prison for antinuclear peace protest

MistWolf said:

Something to contemplate-
- Some of the deadliest snipers used a Mosin-Nagant, firing combloc ammo of questionable quality

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At bad breath distance compared to what the modern sniper shoots at. Simo Häyhä racked up an impressive count, but all were within what is now considered DMR distance, as were Lyudmilla Pavleschnko's.

There is match grade ammunition that is factory loaded to US mil specs issued throughout the US mil. to snipers. This includes 5.56, 7.62 NATO, 300 Winchester magnum, 50 BMG, and a few less common calibers in limited use. The AMU experiments with a lot of different stuff, to include load development. Otherwise, there is little if any reloading going on in the DOD.

WestKentucky said:

They just get what seems to work well and horde as much as they can of the same lot number and use it til it’s gone.

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This, most of the time.^

"Typically my issued ammo was M855. Occasionally I did zero with Mk262 ammo, which is a 77gr Matchking bullet that holds onto accuracy and energy at farther distance than a typical 5.56. In training I did about 25% of my marksmanship with mk262."

This makes no sense at all.^ You zero'd and trained with ammo that was not issued, and took the non-zero'd ammo into the field??? I hope and pray that you simply miss-spoke or that I miss-read your post.
Still today, all my "ready" guns are zero'd for the ammo in all my loaded mags in that caliber, and not for my range ammo. I practice for groups and periodically check zero with my "ready" ammo. That was my training.....YMMV.

jonnyc said:

This makes no sense at all.^ You zero'd and trained with ammo that was not issued, and took the non-zero'd ammo into the field??? I hope and pray that you simply miss-spoke or that I miss-read your post.
Still today, all my "ready" guns are zero'd for the ammo in all my loaded mags in that caliber, and not for my range ammo. I practice for groups and periodically check zero with my "ready" ammo. That was my training

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You may have misread it so I will try to clear it up for you. All my ammo was issued. Big military no no for line units is using your own ammo, internal parts for weapons etc. I deployed with 2 rifles M4 and M16A4 with ACOG. Snipers, DMRs, 240B gunners and medics normally got issued more than one firearm in my battalion. Outside DMR school I shot my M4 more frequently with M855. DMR was the M16A4 and Mk262. Mk262 was in short supply for DM rifleman on the M16A4 so we were "on alert" to re zero the rifle for M855. Not something I was eager to do on our small outpost firing range. DMRs like myself were either issued a M16 or a M14EBR. I wish I had gotten the EBR but I got the short straw supply wise.

There was a show on TV about a sniper unit in Afghanistan shooting a scoped 50 caliber rifle. In order to get more distance they would lay out some of the 50 cal ammo in the sun as they claimed the heated shells would give them more velocity.

entropy said:

At bad breath distance compared to what the modern sniper shoots at. Simo Häyhä racked up an impressive count, but all were within what is now considered DMR distance, as were Lyudmilla Pavleschnko's.

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Exactly my point. They were determined masters of hunting and killing their enemy with obsolete weaponry. Something to think upon.

''In my opinion, for a team round, it is hard to beat Federal Gold Medal Match. The stuff has been consistently great rifle ammunition.''

Bingo for the win. Both 223 and 308

DoubleMag said:

''In my opinion, for a team round, it is hard to beat Federal Gold Medal Match. The stuff has been consistently great rifle ammunition.''

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The Federal GMM in 308 is 168 grain (and is essentially a clone of the Mil M852 round, which is now obsolete). It is an excellent round, but at ranges past 600 meters, is inferior to rounds like the M118 (173 grain) and M118 LR (175 grain) as the max-ord on the GMM/M852 is much higher than the heavier options, making the duties of the spotter much more difficult.

Unless I misunderstood you post, the Fed Gold Medal 308 Win 175 - GM308M2 is functionally +/- the same as M118LR. I have shot them back to back and only got typical sub-moa lot variant amounts of POI change.

MistWolf said:

Exactly my point. They were determined masters of hunting and killing their enemy with obsolete weaponry. Something to think upon.

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Different missions, different times. And the Mosin Nagant was not obsolete then. Indeed, they are still occasionally used in the sandbox, though less than PSL's and Tabuks. There are times and locations where stealthily closing distance is just not possible. One cannot always be the wolf in the mist. OTOH, it is certainly a good tool to have in the tool box.

JCSC said:

While stuck around the house and cleaning up some reloading list items, I wanted to ask everyone a question that I have wondered several times before.

when you look at the top military marksmen, snipers, or whatever you prefer to call them, are they shooting factory ammo?

Did Chris Kyle have someone cooking up custom ammo for his 300 win mag?

I always was curious how that worked.

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Those are good questions and have been followed with a lot of good responses. I do know that the AMU team at Fort Benning has a reloading room. I have a cartridge box in my modest collection thats from Fort Benning.

The sticker on it says:
U.S Army Marksmanship Unit
Match Ammunition Loading Facility
Fort Benning, Ga.
For AMU Chambers Only

I also know that they shoot some non military calibers. I have seen 243, 6.5-284, 300 Winchester and I seem to remember seeing some 6mm BR. I've seen headstamps from FC, WIN and Norma.

I don't know what or where their handloads are used. Practice, Competition, ???

entropy said:

Different missions, different times. And the Mosin Nagant was not obsolete then. Indeed, they are still occasionally used in the sandbox, though less than PSL's and Tabuks. There are times and locations where stealthily closing distance is just not possible. One cannot always be the wolf in the mist. OTOH, it is certainly a good tool to have in the tool box.

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Yup. I wish I could identify all the crap I found in munitions dumps overseas. Found some Henry-Martini rifles still being used against us. Could not tell if they were authentic or Khyber rifles. Found some Mosins and Einfields as well.