mokin
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The zuc shot with the .357 is definitely deader than the others.
A caliber comparison question.
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The zuc shot with the .357 is definitely deader than the others.
WestKentucky
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Yes, with a whole bunch of “I’m smart listen to me” mixed in amongst the simple statement.
herrwalther
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Was this response in a magazine or some other posting? I believe what is being implied in this statement is a 45ACP pistol will have more capacity than a 357 Mag revolver.
wagonburner
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Qué? I understand the words, but the sentence not so much. Actually not at all.
All things equal, a .357 mag has more muzzle energy than a .45ACP. A lot more.
wagonburner
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OP
OP
Hokkmike
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My position exactly - but you have helped me to interpret it. Thanks......
shootbrownelk
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Desert eagle makes a .357 semi-auto. Capacity is then a moot point.
Zaydok Allen
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Yep. Or Coonan
35 Whelen
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So many of these questions can be answered by seeking the guidance of hunters. @Armored farmer is spot on; the larger calibers are more effective on game. Period. Doesn't mean the .357 won't work, it just means it's perhaps, marginal.
I personally have killed game with a .357 carbine and it proved just enough with little room for error, and in order for a .358" bullet to make a hole as large as a .452" bullet, the former has to be of an expanding design, and bullets that take on the appearance of mushrooms when they enter muscle penetrate less than those that don't.
Now, although I've never shot a biped and hope to never have to, whether I'm carrying a 9mm, a hot-loaded .38 Special, a .357, .44 Special or 45 ACP, I don't worry in the least about any of them having enough "power" to protect my life and limbs.
35W
I personally have killed game with a .357 carbine and it proved just enough with little room for error, and in order for a .358" bullet to make a hole as large as a .452" bullet, the former has to be of an expanding design, and bullets that take on the appearance of mushrooms when they enter muscle penetrate less than those that don't.
Now, although I've never shot a biped and hope to never have to, whether I'm carrying a 9mm, a hot-loaded .38 Special, a .357, .44 Special or 45 ACP, I don't worry in the least about any of them having enough "power" to protect my life and limbs.
35W
mokin
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So if I put some of those stickers on my AR-15 it turn into an AR-10?
Probably not, but I am certain if Gwyneth thought this was a profitable sideline, she would offer something that would.
ThomasT
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I looked at those Goop stickers. I really thought Snake Oil salesmen died out at the end of the 19th century. I guess as long as there are fools there will be people to sell empty dreams to them.
I own six 357 revolvers and no 45 autos. I did own one long ago and it was nice but not a life changer. I shot my buds 10mm Glock and it was nice but not enough to make run out and buy one. It wasn't as powerful as I was expecting. As far as I can tell its power over a 357 is from its capacity not the power of the round. I'm content with my 357s.
As for hunting deer I have a nice Super Blackhawk that shoots a 240gr bullet 400fps faster than a 45 and has enough mass to penetrate and enough speed to expand a hollow point or soft point bullet. Why mess with anything else?
I own six 357 revolvers and no 45 autos. I did own one long ago and it was nice but not a life changer. I shot my buds 10mm Glock and it was nice but not enough to make run out and buy one. It wasn't as powerful as I was expecting. As far as I can tell its power over a 357 is from its capacity not the power of the round. I'm content with my 357s.
As for hunting deer I have a nice Super Blackhawk that shoots a 240gr bullet 400fps faster than a 45 and has enough mass to penetrate and enough speed to expand a hollow point or soft point bullet. Why mess with anything else?
WrongHanded
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The answer is: you need a better question.
Such as this:
'What's a more effective Self Defense round, .45 ACP or .357 SIG?'
That'll stir up some opinions.
Such as this:
'What's a more effective Self Defense round, .45 ACP or .357 SIG?'
That'll stir up some opinions.
Coonan is out of business. But the 10mm is very close the 357 and 10mm pistols can be found just about everywhere.
d2wing
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For a time in the in print community, both momentum and kinetic energy were being used as measures of lethality, but kinetic energy won. Both groups wanted to be able to sit down at their typewriters, pull out a slide rule, and calculate lethality using the Newtonian laws of motion. Humans are always trying to find patterns to predict the future, it is just the way we are. By the way, for over a century economists have been trying to reduce economic predictions to a precise mathematical science, and they have failed. A very good reason economics is called the "dismal science". Everyone would love to have their area so nicely and neatly concise and predictable as the Newtonian laws of motion.
The war against infinitesimals has been mostly forgotten, but there was a time when it was heresy to teach infinitesimals or even suggest them. The Jesuits liked the pleasing logic of the proofs and universality of Euclidian geometry. Which too, I found very satisfying. No matter how large the right triangle, C squared always equals A squared and B squared. The sum of the angles of a triangle will always be 180. Simple answers, easy to calculate, universally true, what is not to love about Euclidian geometry? Infinitesimals I still have issues with. Though calculus would not work without them.
But, what you read in the popular in print press is dominated by commercial concerns trying to sell new cartridges and new guns. And they mis use mathematics and the Newtonian laws to push product. I contend that kinetic energy as a measure of lethality, won over momentum because it is easier to push a bullet faster than to increase momentum. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared, momentum is mass times velocity. Just increase the velocity ten feet per second and the latest and greatest cartridge is a hundred times better than the old!. Whoopee!!
Kinetic energy is real, momentum is real, ions are real, frequencies are real, crystals are real, but the tables of kinetic energy needed to kill a mouse, a deer, an elk, an elephant, that was pretty much psuedo science. And the sales pitches of cartridges, based on kinetic energy, the whole pitch was pretty much pseudo science.
If anyone wants to see how ions, energy, crystals, frequencies, which are all real things. are used in pseudo science advertisements, you need go no further than the products that Gwyneth Paltrow sells on Goop:
Wearable Stickers that Promote Healing
https://goop.com/wellness/mindfulness/wearable-stickers-that-promote-healing-really/
We’ve been geeking out about the healing power of energy recently (see our stories on earthing, and the fascinating research at the HeartMath Institute)—so it’s no surprise that Body Vibes, wearable stickers that rebalance the energy frequency in our bodies, have become a major obsession around goop HQ.
The concept: Human bodies operate at an ideal energetic frequency, but everyday stresses and anxiety can throw off our internal balance, depleting our energy reserves and weakening our immune systems. Body Vibes stickers come pre-programmed to an ideal frequency, allowing them to target imbalances. While you’re wearing them—close to your heart, on your left shoulder or arm—they’ll fill in the deficiencies in your reserves, creating a calming effect, smoothing out both physical tension and anxiety. The founders, both aestheticians, also say they help clear skin by reducing inflammation and boosting cell turnover.
Jade Egg
https://shop.goop.com/shop/products/jade-egg?variant_id=25156&country=USA
Yoni eggs harness the power of energy work, crystal healing, and a Kegel-like physical practice. Insert the egg into your ........
ahem...
No this has never been true. Bullet momentum has never been used in actual internal ballistic science. Just by self appointed experts with no credentials.. Not by real scientists.
Zaydok Allen
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Yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that Coonan pistols exist and can be purchased.
I agree, my 10mm pistols are a much better option, but that wasn’t the point of the statement I quoted, or the thread really.
It's used for, among other things, to determine design aspects like slide/barrel weight, recoil spring weight, etc. It also provides a way to get a good feel for the relative penetration of SIMILAR projectiles. Momentum is definitely a scientific quantity that is useful in a number of ways.
I was confused by the OP until I read the posts that followed. Good grief! Slamfire, I was with you until you got to the stickers, then you lost me for sure. I've come to post #42 and I don't even remember the original question...if there was one.
Five or ten minutes of my life, down the tube. And for nothing more than a minor headache. (LOL)
Dave
Five or ten minutes of my life, down the tube. And for nothing more than a minor headache. (LOL)
Dave
d2wing
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Internal ballistics is a different subject, but have at it.
Well they tried. In the book "African Rifles and Cartridges" by Taylor. Taylor was an African game hunter, shooting elephants for the ivory trade. With the extinction of the elephant, rhino, etc, don't know how to feel about a guy who shot hundreds if not thousands of these animals for their teeth and horns, but it was a different time. But anyway, Taylor came up with a "Knock Out" formula, (page 13) that is strictly momentum. His experience was, momentum was a better predictor of "knock out" power than kinetic energy.
Elmer Keith also believed, and promoted the momentum model. Since momentum is conserved in collisions, down to the sub atomic scale, I believed it was a good predictor of lethality, and if truth be told, still do. Even if the experts say it is not, there is just something about big and huge that feels like it has to be bad.
But, increasing momentum was harder to do than increasing kinetic energy, and advertising is as Noam Chomski said: the purpose of advertising is to ill-informed consumers who make irrational choices.
d2wing
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Well some folks claim that that there is no science at all, that everything is made up by gun writers and ad agencies. A gross falsehood intended to discredit actual science. The military and laboratories around the world have actual scientists, many belonging the Society of Ballistic engineers. Those folks since artillery was invented have been doing studies, experiments and observations and study physical and chemistry and other sciences. Those folks are the real scientists and experts. When ammo companies publish energy figures, it's because it is an actual science. Folks like Taylor have vast experience come up with practical ideas that are useful to the layman. Then some others are full of BS. Like the Bible says, many if not most folks are going to believe the guy that tells them what they want to hear. As for me, I like the truth. And it wins few friends. Especially on gun forums. But you believe what you choose.
Internal ballistics is pretty much everything that happens before the projectile leaves the muzzle. That would certainly include recoil (which is based on conservation of momentum) and any considerations surrounding recoil, for example, how to utilize it to perform some function, such as ejection, extraction, or feeding of the next round.
Kinetic energy and momentum are both scientifically valid concepts. People get into trouble when they try to either dismiss them, or try to make them mean more than they do.
No, it sells ammo. It’s a very poor measure of lethality. Sorry so cynical, but folks are enamored with high ME numbers - I was myself at one time, but then I started hunting with revolvers exclusively and realized ME doesn’t really tell you much about how your chosen load is going to perform on game.
herrwalther
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Sure would be nice if another semi auto maker pops up to make a 1911 (or similar) to shoot 357. I love the idea of a Coonan but didn't want to pay Coonan prices. A 1911 in 357 and 10mm would be a fun pairing for me.
I don't disagree. But the problem is, and was, what was being read, was not learned papers, but thinly disguised advertising in the popular in print gun press. Dr. Fackler rails against this in one of his papers. Police departments, even the military, seriously believed what they read in the popular in print press, and good Cops and Military died because of it. The book, The Gun, by Shivers, outlines the Colt AR15 psuedo science in the popular press about the lethality of the 5.56. The gun writers of the era were publishing all sorts of Colt stories about arms, legs, heads being blown off by the 5.56, and people took it seriously, and it helped in the adoption of the M16.
I am going to contend that the firearms industry has not needed to conduct lethality research when all they had to do is get some in print writer to sell their bullet in a popular periodical. These guys rummage through their garage and garbage cans, and what is cheap and waste, becomes a tissue stimulant. Two of the most popular test media were wet newspapers and phone books. Free stacks of newspapers have long disappeared since no one reads "old news". I have not seen a phone book in a while. So those "gold standards" are gone. The inprint crowd also shot wood, clay, soap, ducseal, steel and even into dirt embankments. All of which they claimed calibration against living things by some experience. I have no doubt the media was "adjusted" to give the result the bullet maker wanted. Today, the in print gold standard is water filled milk jugs. When an author gets $400 for an article, it can be understood that he is not going to spend thousands for a ballistic dummy. Rather, these guys have to be driving around on recycle day, robbing the street containers of their plastic waste.
(milk is declining as a beverage, maybe the availability of empty milk jugs will decline. Can someone predict the next in print gold standard for lethality?)
Maybe you know the history better, but it seems to me that the current tissue standard of ballistic gelatin was not established until Dr Fackler, a Government paid researcher, did the publicly funded work to find a decent tissue standard.
This is well working looking at, the link to the Wound Ballistic Journals created by @Hummer70
Why are slow moving heavy bullets considered to be effective?
even in the first issue, a lot of space is dedicated to debunking the kinetic energy theory of lethality, because, the popular press had promoted that theory for decades. Promoted it, because kinetic energy made it easy to sell new cartridges and the firearms chambered for those new cartridges. It is a lot easier to push a bullet faster than it is to increase momentum or design a better expanding bullet.
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