High velocity buckshot for defense. Why?

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Why you ask? It is right there in the advertising!

Critical Defense® is engineered to deliver the pinnacle of threat-stopping power — even when environmental conditions aren’t on your side.

Notice the choice of words that make you NEED it!:uhoh:
 
I changed my opinion based on the real world experience example that was posted. All I had ever seen was a video of a guy shooting buckshot at a side of beef, and the hole/wound at 15 feet was substantial, but someone posting they hit a dog - and it did not drop - I stand corrected, I have no actual experience that was just my opinion, which is now different, and think birdshot is probably good - but, not that good.

Learning is part of the reason why we're all here!
 
I’ve seen a few people who were shot with birdshot... those shot at touching distance died. Others shot further away had ugly wounds, but weren’t incapacitated beyond the sight of the round causing them to pause.

I’ve also known one meth-head who took a “fatal wound” from a 12 gauge slug through the guts and survived. His was a miserable existence of external drainage tubes, colostomy bags and, after testifying against the skinheads who shot him, ultimately a slow-starvation death from what was left of his innards being unable to digest and process food.

All in all, there are no “100% always works” guarantees. Personally, after 29 years and counting in the business I place mine and my family’s stake in Federal #1 buck and a side-saddle with 3 more #1 buck and 3 Winchester segmenting slugs.

I hope I never have to use them, but if I do I have faith in those loads to perform.

Stay safe.
 
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25 years ago, I took a brushing of No 5 while hunting Capercaillie in Sweden with the GF’s father and some of his friends, one of whom had been at the sauce and took the shot that hit me. Took six or seven pellets in the left side of my back, shoulder, and tricep through a big wax coat, heavy sweater and a couple of layers. It would have been a very big deal for the dude who shot me had the matter been brought to the attention of the authorities, so I hit the vodka and the GF went at the shot with tweezers and was very, very appreciative of my stoicism - almost made it worth it ;-)

I learned two important lessons: 1) booze and guns absolutely positively do not mix. Period. And 2) I never want to get shot again, even with birdshot. Period.
 
As we know, Newton's third: every action has an opposite and equal reaction. If it hits that hard in the front, it's doing the same thing to your shoulder. No thanks for practice rounds.
I changed my opinion based on the real world experience example that was posted. All I had ever seen was a video of a guy shooting buckshot at a side of beef, and the hole/wound at 15 feet was substantial, but someone posting they hit a dog - and it did not drop - I stand corrected, I have no actual experience that was just my opinion, which is now different, and think birdshot is probably good - but, not that good.
Keep in mind he shot the canines with #4 bird shot, .12 cal., not #4 buck, .24 cal.
 
My businesses has been such as I have had discussions with emergency room physicians as customers, about a dozen, regards this exact subject. The opions based on emergency room experience were all the same. The shotgun at in-house range does not open up, the smaller the pellet size the worst the wound, every pellet must be removed one at a time. There is nothing to tie to for sutures, the wound is hamburger and a hole. They all were of the opinion that the shotgun with #9 to 7 1/2 shot creates the worse close quarters wounds they see. The plastic surgeon, was very interesting, he has repaired several hands and feet from resting a shotgun. He is a hand and foot reconstruction specialist.
 
My businesses has been such as I have had discussions with emergency room physicians as customers, about a dozen, regards this exact subject. The opions based on emergency room experience were all the same. The shotgun at in-house range does not open up, the smaller the pellet size the worst the wound, every pellet must be removed one at a time. There is nothing to tie to for sutures, the wound is hamburger and a hole. They all were of the opinion that the shotgun with #9 to 7 1/2 shot creates the worse close quarters wounds they see. The plastic surgeon, was very interesting, he has repaired several hands and feet from resting a shotgun. He is a hand and foot reconstruction specialist.

But the smaller the shot, the less penetration. That bad dude may bleed out later is irrelevant to home defense, the goal of which is the fastest possible cessation of hostilities. Bird shot may create a nasty wound, and would be blinding if one were shot in the face, but speaking as someone who has been shot with bird shot (obviously a mistake), while I do not ever wish to repeat the experience, pellets were almost all at epidermal level. To cease forward movement of an attacker, penetration to CNS or major organ is required.
 
In general the faster the shot is pushed the worse it patterns. Past a certain point you do see an increase in expansion from the pellets along with an increase in penetration (to a point). After that point the pellets flatten too much and penetration actually drops.
 
My businesses has been such as I have had discussions with emergency room physicians as customers, about a dozen, regards this exact subject. The opions based on emergency room experience were all the same. The shotgun at in-house range does not open up, the smaller the pellet size the worst the wound, every pellet must be removed one at a time. There is nothing to tie to for sutures, the wound is hamburger and a hole. They all were of the opinion that the shotgun with #9 to 7 1/2 shot creates the worse close quarters wounds they see. The plastic surgeon, was very interesting, he has repaired several hands and feet from resting a shotgun. He is a hand and foot reconstruction specialist.

Keep in mind what these doctors are talking about seeing and dealing with. In this case, they're dealing with a lot of fleshy trauma that requires trying to find and remove a bunch of small pellets. Yeah...it's messy and it's not easy to deal with, and it makes for a mean scar.

But those tiny pellets aren't penetrating very deeply and thus aren't causing the kind of deep tissue/organ damage that larger shot does. THAT kind of damage is very much more life threatening. 12 gauge, 00 buck contains 9 pellets which are 1/3 of an inch (0.330 inch) in diameter and weigh 60 grains. For comparison, that's a smidgen smaller in diameter than a 9mm (0.355 inch) and about half the mass of a 9mm.

In short, smaller shot may look "messier" and be more of a pain for a doctor to treat the flesh wounds of due to the numbers and size of the pellets, but 00 buck is DEADLIER by far because it is fully capable of penetrating deeply into human tissue and reaching vital organs and causing worse bleeding.
 
In the IWBA denim protocol, The majority of the #4 Buckshot pellets seem to penetrate 13" to 14" with some of the pellets traveling as far as 15" and only a few stopping at 11" That seems like pretty good terminal ballistics to me.

 
In the IWBA denim protocol, The majority of the #4 Buckshot pellets seem to penetrate 13" to 14" with some of the pellets traveling as far as 15" and only a few stopping at 11" That seems like pretty good terminal ballistics to me.


I wonder if they make #4 buck in tungsten? That would be a lethal, hard hitting, deep penetrating, and expensive.
 
I'm wondering if the less dense the shot pattern is when it hits the target, the more it penetrates due to less pellets surrounding each other, which I guess would put pressure on each pellet. That's the impression I acquired when Gun Tests shot buckshot through water. IIRC, it was 410 gauge that penetrated quite deep.
 
My HD Mossberg is loaded with low recoil flitecontrol #1 Buck, but I wouldn’t consider myself underarmed with a tube full of #4 Buck. While I see disparaging comments about #4 Buck these days, I’ve read that the SEALs seemed pretty happy with it in Vietnam, and some of the old cops I met liked it, especially for skipping off streets or walls.
 
Skip shooting (or ricochet shooting) works quite well with ordinary 00buck as well. It's a learned skill, though, and more than a bit counter intuitive. You'll need to see it demonstrated then practice a bit before using it when it counts. Anyone that has added that skill to their combat readiness is a very dangerous individual at close quarters in my opinion...
 
I'm wondering if the less dense the shot pattern is when it hits the target, the more it penetrates due to less pellets surrounding each other, which I guess would put pressure on each pellet. That's the impression I acquired when Gun Tests shot buckshot through water. IIRC, it was 410 gauge that penetrated quite deep.

Nope. This is a fallacy.

Individual pellets each have the terminal ballistics inherent with the individual pellets, no matter how closely they may be in a pattern.
 
I used to agree. I had the unpleasant experience of being attacked by dogs repeatedly. Once I got into my truck bed, the next was while I was turkey hunting. Dog came at me and at about 18 ft a load of #4 hit her hard. And the next shell hit her partner in the attack at the same distance. It ended ones fight and killed the other, but the first ran off and lived long enough to rack up vet bills and let the meth-head owner swear out a statement lighting me up for animal cruelty. Bird shot is bird shot, and that’s just that. It doesn’t have the mass to penetrate and be reliably effective. Had the dog been anything bigger than she was and I would have been a chew toy. If it doesn’t say BUCK or SLUG then forget about using it for defense.

And I killed a 50# coyote at 30 yds with a single shot from a 20 ga, #6 high test. Popped out of the edge of a log landing while I was taking a leak - never put down your gun! I was surprised, to say the least. It was a no lose situation, but in a life-on-the-line scenario, I'd prefer a bigger hammer. I am surprised that load #4 at 18 ft didn't do the job though.
 
With TSS, #9 shot out of 410 will blow an attacker out the door at 70 yards. Of course.





(There is no obvious sarcasm emoji. This is sarcasm.)

HAHAHAHA good thing I wasn't drinking when I read that.

I'll stick with 00 buck, even out of my 410 shotguns. I've seen enough tests that 5 pellets of 00 or 000 buckshot out of a 410 does quite well.
 
Standard 1,200fps 00 would always go straight through a deer when shooting them from their side. This was 10 to about 40 yards.
These were smaller east coast white tail.
Every entrance hole had an exit.
Rib cage, leg bone, neck, skull, spine, didn't matter. Never hit had a pellet hit a deer in the pelvic bone.
 
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